--- Log opened Wed Dec 10 00:00:51 2008
03:09 -!- NikkyJr [~nikky@dante01.u.washington.edu] has joined #tiasm
03:14 -!- Netsplit hub.il <-> irc.inter.net.il quits: Nikky
03:56 -!- TheStorm [~TheStorm@CPE-75-86-232-242.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #tiasm
04:05 -!- NikkyJr is now known as Nikky
04:23 -!- DrDnar [~DrDnar@cmu-24-35-40-168.mivlmd.cablespeed.com] has joined #tiasm
04:23 -!- mode/#tiasm [+v DrDnar] by SnowCrash
04:23 <+DrDnar> Ti's brute-force solver is special.
04:23 <+DrDnar> No rounding.
04:24 <+DrDnar> -5.36e-34
04:24 <+DrDnar> Usually, it's just only like e-6, but this time it's all the way up to e-34
04:45 < TheStorm> It should die for it
04:46 < TheStorm> oh and DrDnar I think there might be an issure with your romdumper
04:46 <+DrDnar> do tell
04:46 < TheStorm> as in it has issues writing to my flash drive
04:46 < BrandonW> That's probably not an issue with his dumper, then.
04:47 < BrandonW> But an issue with your drive, or the MSD driver.
04:47 <+DrDnar> The version I have online is hardcoded for the TI84+SE
04:47 < BrandonW> How's that?
04:48 < TheStorm> Well for a while MSD8x and your prog kept throwing an error saying the file doesn't exist when it trys to write but reinstalling USBDRV8x fixed it for MSD8x but not your prog at least not the last version I tried
04:48 <+DrDnar> It just assumes that your ROM is 80h pages long.
04:48 <+DrDnar> But if you have an 84+, you should be able to abort after page 40h by holding CLEAR I think.
04:48 <+DrDnar> I do have a new version that checks the model.
04:48 < TheStorm> I have an SE
04:49 < TheStorm> so thats not the issue
04:49 <+DrDnar> But BrandonW
04:49 <+DrDnar> But BrandonW's right, I doubt the issue is on the dumper's side.
04:50 < BrandonW> The mass storage driver (and any USB oncalc) is inherently flaky and you have to blame the calculator, the hardware you're using, or the driver, and not the programs that take advantage of it.
04:50 <+DrDnar> Actually, I remember that happening to me too.
04:51 <+DrDnar> What file are you using? I forget if that was just unexpected low batteries, or a bug.
04:51 < TheStorm> ok I think I'll wait till BrandonW finishes his updates of the USB8x stuff and then I'll try again
04:51 < TheStorm> I tried a few different file names
04:51 < BrandonW> That could take a while, and there's not likely to be any bug fixes.
04:51 < TheStorm> I know
04:51 <+DrDnar> Try http://pws.cablespeed.com/~tehblueblur/ti83p/beta/flashbeta2.zip
04:52 < TheStorm> I cant right now but I will tomorrow
04:52 <+DrDnar> And make sure to use fresh batteries.
04:52 < TheStorm> will do
04:52 <+DrDnar> I discovered that ROM dumping eats batteries.
04:52 < BrandonW> All USB eats batteries.
04:52 < _aegis_> I eat batteries
04:53 <+DrDnar> Thank you, Netham.
04:53 < _aegis_> I'm not.
04:53 < BrandonW> Flash drives take a lot more power when writing, too.
04:53 < BrandonW> So you're taxing it in the worst possible way.
04:53 <+DrDnar> And use a fast flash drive. My slow drive took have an hour to dump; the fast one less than two minutes.
04:53 <+DrDnar> half*
04:55 <+DrDnar> Though the dump DOES contain the certificate data, Wabbit, when it loads the ROM, doesn't seem to notice.
04:55 < TheStorm> thats odd
04:55 < TheStorm> but yeah good to know
04:55 <+DrDnar> I get the feeling Spencer doesn't care.
04:55 < TheStorm> My flash drive is pretty fast so it shouldn't be an issue
04:56 <+DrDnar> And not all your apps show up. I was rather disappointed. The archive shows up in full,though.
04:56 < BrandonW> Are you positive it's dumping the certificate properly?
04:56 < BrandonW> That's really really strange if the emulator refuses to emulate that page.
04:56 < TheStorm> My slower drive just randomly decided to stop working with MSD8x randomly so IDK
04:56 <+DrDnar> I know! My fast one did that too@
04:57 <+DrDnar> I've seen that unmistakable 0A . . . sequence in the hexeditor.
04:57 < TheStorm> yay for 2x2GB for $13 at Sam's club
04:57 < BrandonW> Try that ROM in TilEm.
05:00 <+DrDnar> There. 00 0A 15 0A 36 05 7A D9
05:00 <+DrDnar> At 1F8000
05:02 <+DrDnar> TheStorm, I had the stop-working problem with my fast flash drive. I don't know what happened. Maybe. . . you could reformat it?
05:06 < TheStorm> tried it and I have an Identical drive that doesn't work at all with MSd8x its really weird
05:06 < TheStorm> the hardware is exactly the same
05:06 < TheStorm> yet one can be read from and the other can't
05:06 < BrandonW> I hate USB.
05:07 <+DrDnar> The infinate mysteries of USB.
05:07 <+DrDnar> infinite
05:13 < TheStorm> the one allowed me to write to it for a while and then decied to stop working on me
05:14 < TheStorm> well gnight
05:14 -!- TheStorm [~TheStorm@CPE-75-86-232-242.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: "Have a Nice Day, or not, The choice is yours." T. Steiner]
05:14 <+DrDnar> Apperently TilEm is hardcoded for a particular directory. . . which directory is it?
05:15 <+DrDnar> because checking the current directly is very hard
05:15 < BrandonW> One up from the executable's directory.
05:15 < BrandonW> And it has to be named xz.com for an 84+SE ROM, I think.
05:15 < BrandonW> It's odd.
05:16 < BrandonW> xz.rom*
05:23 <+DrDnar> "unable to pixmap run.xpm"
05:23 <+DrDnar> sounds like gtk issues
05:23 <+DrDnar> gtk+windows = fail
05:24 <+DrDnar> It causes bloat.
05:25 < BrandonW> Yeah, I hate Linux developers that get lazy with making stuff run on Windows.
05:25 < _aegis_> <_<
05:25 < BrandonW> When you set out to make something to work on multiple platforms, you don't do it that way.
05:25 < _aegis_> you can use wxwidgets
05:25 < _aegis_> or write a native gui for each platform
05:26 < BrandonW> Yes, you focus on each platform separately.
05:26 <+DrDnar> It's easy! Just use lots of ifdefs
05:26 < BrandonW> Not write it once and hope it works on the others.
05:26 < BrandonW> In a perfect world that'd be great, but this isn't a perfect world.
05:26 < BrandonW> There ARE different architectures.
05:26 < BrandonW> And if you want stuff to run on more than one, account for it.
05:26 <+DrDnar> ifdefs make C FUN!!
05:26 < BrandonW> This is why I hate Java.
05:26 < BrandonW> Java is the perfect example of what happens when you get lazy.
05:26 < BrandonW> You get crap that runs the same crappy way everywhere.
05:26 <+DrDnar> Write once, run nowhere.
05:27 < _aegis_> :D
05:27 < _aegis_> python is awesome for multiplatform commandline junk
05:27 < BrandonW> Yes.
05:27 < BrandonW> I hate Python.
05:27 < _aegis_> too simple compared to asm?
05:28 <+DrDnar> It needed a 2MB of libs to make  a program I could have done in, like, 10K of assembly.
05:28 <+DrDnar> If that.
05:28 < BrandonW> I find Python to be a jumbled mess.
05:28 < BrandonW> And anything but simple.
05:28 <+DrDnar> Much less, actually, if I did 16-bit.
05:29 < _aegis_> well, you can go to the grocery store in a limo...
05:29 < _aegis_> even if it's next door
05:29 < BrandonW> If it were up to me, yes, we'd be doing Win32 x86 assembly for everything.
05:29 < BrandonW> Everything Windows.
05:29 < _aegis_> what about other platforms?
05:30 < BrandonW> They don't matter.
05:30 < _aegis_> ever browse the internet?
05:30 < BrandonW> lol
05:30 <+DrDnar> Having only used Python once, I can't really say much, but it seems that Python is too bloated for distribution, even if you can prototype quickly.
05:30 < _aegis_> depends on your application
05:31 <+DrDnar> I used a semihack to calculate a 16-bit checksum in Python.
05:31 < _aegis_> and iirc you can get the libs down to an integrated 1mb exe
05:31 < _aegis_> with the script included
05:31 < BrandonW> *gasp*
05:32 < BrandonW> I would rather do .NET.
05:32 < _aegis_> but from there, I can include the 4500 line extremely complicated but pristinely clean irc-style game lobby server I wrote
05:32 <+DrDnar> I actually summed the data, and then truncated the result to 16-bits on write.
05:32 < _aegis_> in under 100kb
05:32 < _aegis_> probably about 5kb, actually
05:32 < _aegis_> it would take too long to write in assembly for my comfort
05:33 < _aegis_> but meh, it's all a matter of preference ^_^
05:33 < _aegis_> .NET is a framework
05:33 <+DrDnar> 1MB? That's still 0.9999952316MB more than is needed.
05:33 < _aegis_> back to the grocery store analogy
05:33 < _aegis_> use the right tool for the job
05:34 < BrandonW> Any .NET language, I meant.
05:34 < _aegis_> and the point of libraries is you only need one copy of them in an ideal situation
05:34 < _aegis_> i.e. most linux distributions have python
05:34 < _aegis_> preinstalled
05:34 <+DrDnar> And the point of stand-alones it to HAVE NO LIBS
05:34 < _aegis_> and mac osx does
05:35 < _aegis_> rapid prototyping now integrates with easy to distribute
05:35 <+DrDnar> If was catering to Linux-folk, I'd have no problem just distributing the source and saying "run it yourself"
05:35 < BrandonW> You sound like a Python spokesperson now.
05:36 < _aegis_> meh, I just use it a lot
05:38 <+DrDnar> It's the lib-bloat that really gets me. Ya know, I bet you could write an optimizer to clear out junk. In Python.
05:38 < _aegis_> yep
05:38 < _aegis_> py2exe actually strips all libs you don't need when it makes the exe
05:38 < _aegis_> so you have the interpreter and minimal support libs
05:39 <+DrDnar> Even then you have like 600K of libs. 
05:39 <+DrDnar> COmpressed.
05:39 < _aegis_> zipped
05:39 < _aegis_> depends.
05:39 < _aegis_> I've had scripts with 20kb of libs
05:40 <+DrDnar> Yes, well, apperently you need 600K of libs to write binary-mode files.
05:42 <+DrDnar> ANYWAY, Back to math homework! Quick, what are the extrema of x^(1/3)*(x+8)
05:42 < BrandonW> I couldn't even tell you what extrema meant.
05:42 <@chronomex> 4 and -8.2
05:42 <+DrDnar> I haven't even finished copying the problem!
05:43 <@chronomex> you're slow :)
05:43 < BrandonW> You think 15" is excessive for an LCD picture frame?
05:43 <@chronomex> $15 is excessive
05:43 < _aegis_> it actually looks pretty cool
05:43 <@chronomex> oh, um, not really, sounds good
05:43 <+DrDnar> What'cha puttin' in it?
05:43 < BrandonW> Most are 8-10".
05:43 < BrandonW> It's a Christmas present.
05:44 <+DrDnar> Oh, like a generic frame.
05:44 <+DrDnar> I think bigger when I do prints.
05:45 < BrandonW> I'm looking at $200 if I go 15".
05:45 < BrandonW> I can't decide.
05:45 < _aegis_> how important is the person to you?
05:45 <+DrDnar> That's pretty expensive.
05:45 < BrandonW> Parents, so...
05:45 < _aegis_> ah.
05:45 < _aegis_> I'm getting my father a computer <_<
05:45 < BrandonW> More important than most, I guess.
05:46 < BrandonW> Last year I got them a laptop.
05:47 <+DrDnar> Oh, that's right.
05:47 <+DrDnar> I never got a print of this I took: http://ashsteacher.org/bartgis/yellowstone/bin/images/large/trout_lake.jpg
05:47 < _aegis_> depends on if he'll appreciate the difference between 8-10" and 15"
05:47 < _aegis_> *they'll
05:47 < _aegis_> the small ones are cool too
05:47 < _aegis_> also maybe think about if they have a convenient place to put it
05:48 < BrandonW> I can see only one place to put it, and they'd be walking right by it.
05:48 < BrandonW> So 15" might freak them out and be overkill.
05:49 <+DrDnar> That photo would be better if it was taken at the right time of day.
05:49 < BrandonW> It's a nice picture.
05:49 <+DrDnar> It's a photomerge. The full size is crazy-big.
05:50 < BrandonW> Why do so many computer people like digital photography?
05:50 < BrandonW> I never understood it.
05:51 <+DrDnar> My aunt and uncle gave me a trip to Yellowstone for a Christmas present last year. I thought maybe a nice photo might be nice in return.
05:51 < BrandonW> I wouldn't know where to start to get a camera capable of producing that.
05:51 <+DrDnar> Well for one thing, color film labs are even more toxic than black-and-white.
05:51 <+DrDnar> And you can't have a safelight in color labs.
05:52 < BrandonW> I'm reading the words, but...
05:52 < BrandonW> It's all greek.
05:52 <+DrDnar> We have a black-and-white lab in our basement.
05:52 <+DrDnar> Film. Develop. Toxic.
05:53 <@chronomex> sweet
05:54 <+DrDnar> My father was into photography in the 70s and late 80s. He still does it when he can, which is seldom. I kinda picked it up from him.
05:54 < BrandonW> So I'm thinking this: http://www.thinkgeek.com/electronics/digital-photo-frames/96a6
05:59 <+DrDnar> Also, a photo like that is processed digitally in some special way. All good photography is. Even with film, you'd use special dark-room techniques and bought special film.
06:00 <@chronomex> but special techniques != digital processing
06:02 <+DrDnar> But it does. Where do you think Photoshop's dodge and burn tools come from?
06:03 <@chronomex> analog != digital
06:03 <+DrDnar> Color correction, contrast enhancement. They can do it in film labs, but it's expensive.
06:04 < _aegis_> analog is digital with a lot more variables
06:04 < _aegis_> and a broader range of values
06:04 <@chronomex> gamut is everything
06:04 <+DrDnar> For $99, you can buy software that can do what a ten-thousand dollar color machine can do.
06:05 <+DrDnar> So digital is a lot more popular these days.
06:05 <@chronomex> for $99 I can get a SVGA projector at the corner drugstore
06:06 <@chronomex> for $600ish + bunch of video cards I can have a full immersive graphical environment
06:06 <+DrDnar> For $6000 you can get a 20 megapixel camera.
06:06 < _aegis_> you can make one for less
06:07 <+DrDnar> Or you could pick up a 7200 dpi 135-format film scanner for <$500.
06:07 < BrandonW> I can make an 83+ out of a $30 73. So take that.
06:08 < _aegis_> :)
06:08 <@chronomex> BrandonW: but both of them cost TI $5 to make
06:08 <+DrDnar> I got, like, 30 megapixel scans. Lightroom wouldn't load 'em.
06:08 <+DrDnar> Ti-83 also costs $5 to make.
06:08 < BrandonW> Don't ruin this for me.
06:09 <+DrDnar> He's just cheating TI out of $40.
06:09 <+DrDnar> Or $40*countless students
06:10 <+DrDnar> I uh. . . don't mention photograph around me again, perhaps.
06:10 < BrandonW> I warn people at work not to mention calculators.
06:11 <+DrDnar> Somehow, students know not to ask too much around me.
06:12 <@chronomex> BrandonW: hah, why?
06:12 < BrandonW> Because once I get started, I don't shut up.
06:12 <@chronomex> well yeah
06:13 <+DrDnar> Someone hire someone to do transscriptions. Then ask BrandonW a question, and the Wiki will be completed.
06:13 <@chronomex> this is irc, you don't need to transcribe, you just need grep
06:13 < BrandonW> If there was actual interest, I'd be doing "Ask BrandonW a Question" daily thingies.
06:14 < BrandonW> Then I'd go out of my way to talk about every single thing about it.
06:14 < BrandonW> Like how TI-Navigator can write applications and appvars.
06:14 <+DrDnar> So BrandonW, which TI-BASIC commands are ACTUALLY the fastest? 
06:14 < BrandonW> People would learn, and it'd be therapeutic for me.
06:15 < BrandonW> Except BASIC questions, I'd ignore those.
06:15 <+DrDnar> This whole on-line late thing doesn't work for me so well.
06:15 <+DrDnar> Ah.
06:15  * DrDnar thinks
06:15 < BrandonW> One day I'm actually going to look into running OS 2.41 on an 83+SE.
06:16 <+DrDnar> Perhaps you could just make all USB routines returns fail.
06:16 < _aegis_> only non-hardware difference is testguard/push to test/clear?
06:16 < BrandonW> There are all sorts of differences and enhancements.
06:17 <+DrDnar> A few new features, like manual fit, a graphical change on the table, different graphing
06:17 < _aegis_> manual fit?
06:18 < BrandonW> OpenLib(/ExecLib, RunAppLib, all the new BCALLs...
06:18 < BrandonW> Extra BASIC commands...
06:18 <+DrDnar> Perhaps you could make it so the clock stays at whatever it was last set to.
06:18 <+DrDnar> So dayOfTheWeek still works.
06:19 < BrandonW> It still wouldn't update.
06:19 < BrandonW> dayOfWk requires the clock be set?
06:19 < BrandonW> But not actually updating?
06:19 <+DrDnar> Oh, never mind.
06:19 <+DrDnar> It doesn't.
06:20 <+DrDnar> All date/time routines returns Jan 1, 2001, midnight. Seems good to me.
06:20 < BrandonW> You could steal the third crystal timer for the clock.
06:20 < BrandonW> Michael Vincent modified his 83+SE OS way way back when to add a clock to the OS using the crystal timers.
06:20 < BrandonW> He credits himself with giving TI the idea to add the clock hardware to the 84+/SE.
06:21 <+DrDnar> Yeah, but since halt doesn't work right with them, you'd have to use the system interrupt to keep time when the unit is off.
06:21 <+DrDnar> He would.
06:22 <@chronomex> I still don't understand why everything and its mother has to have a clock in it
06:22 <+DrDnar> I mean, I guess if all you're doing is checking the timer port 100 times a second, the battery drain still wouldn't be too much. . .
06:22 <+DrDnar> RTCs are cool?
06:23 <@chronomex> but there's no REASON my stove should know what time it is if the microwave already does
06:23 <@chronomex> people are all "OOH I HAVE A FREE 7SEG DISPLAY LETS PUT A CLOCK ON IT"
06:24 < BrandonW> Because they can.
06:24 <+DrDnar> Maybe some people don't HAVE stoves.
06:24 <@chronomex> and then the actual users are pissed because they have to either have the wrong time or set it all the time
06:24 <@chronomex> there's almost never an option for "display nothing when idle"
06:24 < BrandonW> You have to go to the mode screen to even see the time on the 84+/SE. It's not inconveniencing you. Hush.
06:25 <@chronomex> yeah I know
06:25 <@chronomex> this is a tirade against unimaginative product designers
06:25 <+DrDnar> I never see people set it.
06:25 <+DrDnar> I think most people don't notice it.
06:25 <@chronomex> yeah
06:32 <+DrDnar> The TI-84 exists mostly so TI can squeeze more money out of people. Almost nobody uses the extra space.
06:32 <+DrDnar> TI-84+SE rather
06:32 <+DrDnar> The same people who never notice the clock.
06:33 < BrandonW> People use the USB port.
06:34 <+DrDnar> but that's not different from the TI84BE
06:34 <+DrDnar> My point was TI charges more for the memory, when few people use it.
06:34 <+DrDnar> But parents still buy the SEs for kids.
06:35 <+DrDnar> And the extra CPU speed helps
06:36 <+DrDnar> Maybe those extra 20 and 25MHz modes Michael talked about would have been nice on the 84SE
06:40 <+DrDnar> This test is yeilding odd values.
06:40 <+DrDnar> I'm getting 15.417Mhz for mode 3
06:41 <+DrDnar> but my previous tests collaborated the Wiki
06:42 <+DrDnar> And why did I leave the run indicator on?
06:42 <+DrDnar> I thought I di/ei in the test.
06:45 <+DrDnar> I wonder how much the OS interrupt could be messing up the test.
06:51 < BrandonW> A lot, if you're aiming for that kind of precision.
06:51 <+DrDnar> Oh I forgot.
06:52 <+DrDnar> The test does indeed di/ei in the code, but it run the test several times and averages the results.
06:54 <+DrDnar> The test itself only takes 2.075e-3 seconds, but it does it several times.
06:55 <+DrDnar> So TIOS still has time to run its interrupt inbetween tests.
07:00 < BrandonW> If you write a test program, I'll run it on the Nspire emulator.
07:00 < BrandonW> And see what it does.
07:00 < BrandonW> Someone really needs to do that.
07:00 < BrandonW> But I don't want to write it.
07:01 < BrandonW> I really don't care that much.
07:04 <+DrDnar> I think I already have that clock tester uploaded.
07:04 <+DrDnar> CPU clock tester, that is
07:05 <+DrDnar> It gives a slightly different value each time you run it despite the averaging.
07:06 <+DrDnar> http://pws.cablespeed.com/~tehblueblur/ti83p/CLOCK.8XP
07:06 <+DrDnar> Uses the crystal timers to test the CPU clock speed.
07:07 <+DrDnar> Source: 
07:07 <+DrDnar> http://pws.cablespeed.com/~tehblueblur/ti83p/clock.z80
07:09 <+DrDnar> I guess I shouldn't be suprised if the clock speed changes with battery level.
07:25 <+DrDnar> I'm curious to see how that works on the Nspire.
07:53 -!- DrDnar [~DrDnar@cmu-24-35-40-168.mivlmd.cablespeed.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 335 seconds]
13:15 -!- Merthsoft [~Shaun@140.141.26.108] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:06 -!- Merthsoft [~Shaun@140.141.215.159] has joined #tiasm
20:31 -!- Merthsoft [~Shaun@140.141.215.159] has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
21:33 -!- Merthsoft [~Shaun@140.141.215.159] has joined #tiasm
23:08 -!- Storm|wrk [~chatzilla@rrcs-67-53-176-159.west.biz.rr.com] has joined #tiasm
23:40 -!- Storm|wrk [~chatzilla@rrcs-67-53-176-159.west.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]]
--- Log closed Thu Dec 11 00:00:51 2008