--- Log opened Sun Jan 03 00:00:54 2010
00:03 <@E-J> -21C
00:04 <@E-J> that's below zero on fahrenheit as well (-5.8F)
00:05 <@E-J> where is that global warming
00:06 < calc84> in al gore's pants
00:13 -!- Randomist [~Vampire@75.111.209.80] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:19 -!- Michael_V [michael@ip68-109-186-79.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #tcpa
00:19 -!- mode/#tcpa [+v Michael_V] by efneTI80
00:20 < ports_>  cvvshutup and bounce
00:21 <+Michael_V> Suddenly C++ isn't as fun anymore
00:21 <+Michael_V> it's rather ridiculous that there are char*, string, and String
00:21 <+Michael_V> and Microsoft functions use String
00:21 <+Michael_V> just for pain I imagine
00:22 <+krisk> you do realise the differences, though?
00:23 <+Michael_V> yes
00:23 <+Michael_V> although I'm not convinced that String is necessary :)
00:23 <+Michael_V> in my case anyway
00:23 <+Michael_V> but I'm using char* and now for microsoft functions, I have to convert back and forht
00:23 <+Michael_V> *forth
00:23 <+krisk> yeah that gets ugly
00:24 <+Michael_V> Is there a concise way to convert a String to char*?
00:29 -!- Merthsoft [~Shaun@d-69-161-78-59.cpe.metrocast.net] has joined #tcpa
00:31 < i_c-Y> for stl strings you have .c_str(),  i know for CString theres a .GetBuffer thing.
00:32 <+Michael_V> right, but there's nothing "easy" for String
00:32 <+Michael_V> some of the examples look ridiculous
00:33 < i_c-Y> PtrToStringChars might work unless if im remembering things wrong
00:34 < i_c-Y> you can also construct a CString using String probably and then do stuff on there.
00:35 < i_c-Y> i think the proper way to do it is to use a marshal_context, then use marshal_as to get a const char * thoguh
00:35 <+Michael_V> hmm
00:36 < Barrett_> why do spanish speakers suck at spanish?
00:36 < Barrett_> "Soy lo que tu quiera que seas" ... anyone else see what's wrong with that?
00:36 -!- Exploiter [~Sk84Life@c-67-185-40-45.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Fúck word filters]
00:36 < calc84> hy do englihs spekers suk at english
00:39 < i_c-Y> Michael_V: the annoying thing is that you have to account for wchar's too
00:40 < i_c-Y> the thing i'd probably do is PtrToStringChars(pointer to String)
00:40 < i_c-Y> note that you have to pin the pointer 
00:40 < i_c-Y> or you're fucked.
00:41 < i_c-Y> so i think its something like const _wchar_t _pin *p=PtrToStringChars(&myString); 
00:43 < i_c-Y> i was looking at the CString constructors page and found this
00:43 < i_c-Y> http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms235631.aspx
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00:44 < i_c-Y> microsoft does do some messed up things - i especially hate their doublly null terminated strings that they use in some places since something like char *bleh[] wasn't acceptable for some reaosn
00:46 < i_c-Y> i suppose pinning things is kinda ugly though
00:48 < i_c-Y> CString then using GetBuffer or LPCTSTR is probably a bit neater.
00:49 <+Michael_V> thanks for the suggestions
00:49 <+Michael_V> I'm annoyed that it's this complicated to begin with :)
00:50 < i_c-Y> well yeah. if you asked me this 8 years ago or something, id probably have a better answer.
00:50 -!- Jonimus [~TheStorm@CPE-24-167-201-56.wi.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
00:51 <+Michael_V> maybe I'll see if I can avoid converting back :)
00:51 < i_c-Y> what are you writing anyway?
00:51 <+Michael_V> a file checksumming program
00:51 < i_c-Y> why do you need the microsoft specific functions then?
00:51 <+Michael_V> I want it to scan particular folders and create a database of SHA2 checksums
00:52 <+Michael_V> well perhaps there's a better way, but I'm looking to take paths as input and open directories and such
00:52 <+Michael_V> I'm trying to use Path.GetFullPath
00:52 <+Michael_V> to take a command line input that can be "c:\folder" or "..\folder" or whatever
00:52 < i_c-Y> use cygwin and readdir >.> or fts
00:53 <+Michael_V> hmm what is fts?
00:53 < i_c-Y> FTS(3)                   BSD Library Functions Manual                   FTS(3)
00:53 < i_c-Y> NAME fts, fts_open, fts_read, fts_children, fts_set, fts_close - traverse a file hierarchy
00:54 <+Michael_V> hmm which is better?
00:54 < i_c-Y> fts is probably easier
00:54 <+Michael_V> If I could somehow make it cross-platform (or easily portable at a later date), that would be very nice
00:54 <+Michael_V> hmm
00:54 <+Michael_V> and fts is in cygwin?
00:55 < i_c-Y> ya
00:55 <+Michael_V> thanks
00:56 <+Michael_V> It does look much simpler than Microsoft's nonsense
00:56 <+krisk> can cygwin be easily bundled?
00:56 -!- Jonimus [~TheStorm@CPE-24-167-201-56.wi.res.rr.com] has joined #tcpa
00:56 < efneTI92> [Jonimus] Yes rivereye, it is time to go fishing.
00:56 <+Michael_V> well this is for my own use primarily
00:56 < i_c-Y> ya
00:56 < i_c-Y> pull in cygwin1.dll
00:57 <+krisk> cool
00:57 < i_c-Y> ie. include that with your project.
00:59 < i_c-Y> for all intents and purposes, fts is class platform.
00:59 <+krisk> you mean cross platform?
00:59 < i_c-Y> but opendir and what not (dirent.h) with sys/types.h is more cross platform as its POSIX
01:00 < i_c-Y> (you'll probably use sys/stat.h too )
01:00 <+Michael_V> yes I might do opendir
01:00 <+Michael_V> the GNU C library
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01:00 <+Michael_V> I don't really care about complexity as long as serves a legitimate purpose
01:00 < i_c-Y> fts is in gnu libc too.
01:00 <+Michael_V> not ridiculous string nonsense :)
01:00 <+Michael_V> *as it serves
01:01 < i_c-Y> people think posix is overcomplicated, but it accounts for a billion things though and its pretty clean overall imo
01:01 < i_c-Y> (plus the pre posix fns are still there but theres a lot of issues with them)
01:02 < i_c-Y> fts is easier than just going through opendir so id reccomend using that instead
01:03 < i_c-Y> if you want to throw in a gui or something to it, just make a C program for the workhorse, then throw a quick gui in python pyqt or something
01:03 <+Michael_V> real men don't use GUIs :P
01:03 <+Michael_V> thank you very much though
01:04 <+Michael_V> I'm going to try the POSIX stuff...looks manageable
01:04 <+Michael_V> hmm
01:04 <+Michael_V> I don't even have to use C++ then!
01:04 <+Michael_V> I could just use C!
01:05  * Michael_V may be slightly deranged
01:05 <+Michael_V> After all, I did write a website in C
01:05 < i_c-Y> yes, you can do the whole thing in C. though it can easily be done with STL.
01:05 < Merthsoft> i wrote an OS in C
01:05 <+Michael_V> I've never used STL
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01:06 < i_c-Y> going between C strings and stuff in STL is pretty simple. 
01:06 <+Michael_V> assembly is so much easier than high level languages :)
01:06 <+Michael_V> all this nonsense about templates and fancy things
01:06 <+Michael_V> just give me raw access to the hard drive and I'll be fine :)
01:06 < i_c-Y> theres a bunch of POSIX constants you have to make sure you know about though - eg. PATHNAME_MAX and stuff when defining your character arrays :)
01:06 < Jonimus> lol Michael_V, you might as well just go back to DOS systems where that was much easier
01:07 <+Michael_V> well when I was implementing USB flash drive support and FAT16 support for msd8x, I knew what I was doing
01:07 <+Michael_V> at least
01:07 <+Michael_V> I like to do things my way :)
01:08 <+Michael_V> I will be using sqlite as well
01:08 <+Michael_V> which has a C interface...yay
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01:10 <+Michael_V> wow
01:10 <+Michael_V> ftw()
01:10 <+Michael_V> that does the work
01:10 < i_c-Y> you have fun with that. 
01:10 <+Michael_V> it recurses!
01:10 < i_c-Y> why do you think ive been nudging you towards fts?
01:10 <+Michael_V> ftw is in the POSIX though
01:11 <+Michael_V> hmm
01:11 <+Michael_V> I thought anyway
01:11 <+Michael_V> http://www.gnu.org/software/libc/manual/html_node/Working-with-Directory-Trees.html#Working-with-Directory-Trees
01:11 <+Michael_V> I've just been looking there
01:11 < i_c-Y> ftw is more awkward than fts stuff.
01:11 < Merthsoft> ftw ftw
01:11 < i_c-Y> atleast i think so :/
01:12 < i_c-Y> well, if you need things to be done like ftw, use it.
01:13 < i_c-Y> its portable , it works i suppose.
01:13 < i_c-Y> fts.h should be in POSIX but its not, unfortunately
01:15 < i_c-Y> what kind of checksumming are you doing anyway? maybe it can just be done as a shell script even.
01:16 <+Michael_V> I'm creating a sqlite database of checksums for all files
01:17 <+Michael_V> but then when ran again, it will not only compare files against their checksums to check for data corruption, but update the database
01:17 <+Michael_V> if a file has changed and the last modified date is after the last scan date, it can be assumed to be changed by the user
01:17 <+Michael_V> otherwise, corruption
01:17 <+Michael_V> and then I'll have a feature for showing the history of a file, etc.
01:18 < i_c-Y> so you want to make CVS or something over again ?
01:18 < _Digital> ...
01:18 < _Digital> MV is back
01:18 < _Digital> wow, I missed much
01:18 <+Michael_V> well I want to be assured on this Windows computer that my important data isn't corruptd
01:18 <+Michael_V> *corrupted
01:19 <+Michael_V> and also check the integrity of DVDs
01:19 < i_c-Y> backups with rsync :)
01:19 < i_c-Y> or rdiff rather.
01:20 <+Michael_V> but what if the source is corrupted?
01:20 < i_c-Y> use something like AMANDA or Bacula then, and keep a ton of virtual tapes. 
01:21 < i_c-Y> or theres probably something in the rdiff options for that
01:22 <+Michael_V> I feel like programming anyway :)
01:22 <+Michael_V> I have no time during the semester for it
01:22 <+Michael_V> I need to program now :)
01:23 < i_c-Y> heh
01:24 < i_c-Y> you're in law school now,r ight?
01:24 <+Michael_V> yes
01:24 <+Michael_V> I'm the only person running Linux on their laptop
01:24 <+krisk> hahaha
01:24 < _Digital> nice
01:25 <+Michael_V> it works perfectly
01:25 <+krisk> http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/764781/84a9f960/ricky_gervais_in_sesamstraat._deel_2.html
01:25 <+krisk> haha
01:25 <+Michael_V> I have shell scripts on the desktop for various tasks
01:25 < i_c-Y> lemme guess, ubuntu?
01:25 <+Michael_V> yes
01:26 < _Digital> I need to setup sudo...
01:26 < i_c-Y> just use su.
01:26 <+Michael_V> I type all my notes and everything in openoffice of course
01:26 <+Michael_V> It works great
01:26 < i_c-Y> OOo is a POS
01:27 <+Michael_V> I find it very useful and reliable
01:27 < i_c-Y> id rather use MS Word. 
01:27 <+Michael_V> not an option on Linux :)
01:27 < i_c-Y> Wine.
01:27 < i_c-Y> :)
01:27 < _Digital> i_c-Y, less convinient
01:27 <+Michael_V> I tried that out of curiosity
01:27 <+Michael_V> I couldn't get it working
01:27 < i_c-Y> crossover office
01:27 <+Michael_V> with Office 2000
01:27 <+Michael_V> I don't remember why, but I spent some time before giving up
01:27 < i_c-Y> _Digital: its horrible. 
01:27 < i_c-Y> the only alternative to word I use is Abiword
01:27 < _Digital> sudo is horrible?
01:27 <+Michael_V> I almost prefer openoffice to word
01:27 < i_c-Y> sometimes.
01:27 < _Digital> eh
01:28 <+krisk> sudo creates a bad habit
01:28 < _Digital> how so?
01:28 <+Michael_V> sudo make me a sandwich
01:28 < i_c-Y> sudo is just excessive - i don't use it. 
01:28 <+Michael_V> that's a bad habit
01:28 <+Michael_V> bbl
01:28 < i_c-Y> its a good concept but su does everything you need.
01:28 < Jonimus> su -c 
01:29 < _Digital> that works
01:30 < i_c-Y> so who is watching doctor who?
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01:40 <+Michael_V> yay mingw
01:41 < i_c-Y> id rather just include cygwin1.dll. less work.
01:41 < i_c-Y> at most you're a recompile away
01:42 < i_c-Y> ie. if you move from cygwin 1.5 to 1.7 which came out a few days ago
01:44 <+Michael_V> ok, you've convinced me :)
01:47 < Merthsoft> so my dad wants me to setupp his old computer to use it as a print server or whatever (like, any computer can print by sending it to that computer, they have those right?) how would i do that?
01:47 < i_c-Y> mingw is a pain in the ass to get working on its own - you're probably going to get frustrated and just go for cygwin anyway
01:47 < i_c-Y> Merthsoft: install linux, intsall cups.
01:48 < i_c-Y> install cups with samba
01:48 < i_c-Y> then print to the printers throuhg samba
01:48 < Merthsoft> and all the windows PCs can print there too?
01:48 < i_c-Y> http://www.samba.org/samba/docs/man/Samba-HOWTO-Collection/CUPS-printing.html 
01:48 < i_c-Y> yes
01:48 < i_c-Y> you can always use the windows sharing to share the printer as well.
01:49 < i_c-Y> (note that you still need to know how to install cups - you can look for documentation at your leisure)
01:49 < i_c-Y> (also note that you can use FreeBSD or something as well)
01:50 < i_c-Y> its quite convenient to do on windows as well
01:50 < i_c-Y> :)
01:50 <+Michael_V> instead of using a computer as a print server, just get a network print server
01:50 <+Michael_V> they're fairly cheap
01:50 <+Michael_V> and will pay for themselves in electricity
01:50 < i_c-Y> that'll save electricity :)
01:51 < _Digital> or just get a printer that can sit on teh network without being attached to a computer
01:51 < i_c-Y> whcih has a network print server built in.
01:51 < i_c-Y> :)
01:51 < _Digital> I figured the two just might be the same ;)
01:52 < i_c-Y> you can also have the computer do network shares and stuff though. good standalone NAS are pretty expensive
01:53 < bsparks> Wow, I never thought it possible. Someone bothered to suggest a worse browser than the ones nikky and Michael_V did. Even though I wasn't asking for suggestions 
01:53 < _Digital> now, time to find either find a way to make poster frames to embed into my video files, or make a script to clean up my encoding logs files so I don't have listing of episodes I had to delete for whatever reason and didn't remove their entries
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01:53 <+Michael_V> bsparks: I treated the post as an extension of IRC :)
01:53 <+Michael_V> don't take it seirously
01:53 <+Michael_V> *seriously
01:53 < bsparks> I don't
01:54 < _Digital> we take MV seriously :)
01:54 < bsparks> But this last suggestion is assinine 
01:54 <+Michael_V> you mean asinine
01:54 < bsparks> Yes, that
01:54 < _Digital> !qfind holy carp
01:54 <@efneTI86> No matches
01:54 < _Digital> ...
01:54 < _Digital> !qfind carp
01:54 <@efneTI86> 421:JMan: <+_Digital> holy crap |<+Michael_V> I believe you mean "whole carp" as in a fish you bought from the supermarket
01:54 < Merthsoft> Michael_V: can you suggest one?
01:54 <@efneTI86> (All of 1 match)
01:54 < i_c-Y> what kind of printer is it
01:55 <+Michael_V> yes, i_c-Y has asked the most important question
01:55 <+Michael_V> aka does it print in software with weird cheapo drivers
01:55 < Merthsoft> two epsns
01:55 <+Michael_V> models?
01:55 < Merthsoft> epsons
01:55 < Merthsoft> ummm
01:55 < Merthsoft> i dunno
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01:56 < Merthsoft> (also, we want it to be wireless, that's thing right?)
01:56 < i_c-Y> if you have that stuff, its probably best that you relegate it to a box with CUPS imo.
01:57 < i_c-Y> even if its one of those little Marvell plugs or something
01:57 < Merthsoft> i like the idea of saving electricity, though
01:57 < i_c-Y> like the 50 dollar marvells.
01:57 <+Michael_V> http://netgear.com/Products/PrintServers/WirelessPrintServers/WGPS606.aspx
01:58 < Merthsoft> this looks good http://www.ewiz.com/detail.php?name=ZO-ZPS2102&src=FR&pid=6014fe2767e70c0c01d74895db94b1a567aedd81776b73fdd64082f4fe2de2b7
01:58 <+Michael_V> or instead of zonet, you can get the netgear one I linked
01:58 <+Michael_V> in either case...there will be nearly no heat...no noise...and the power savings will more than cover the cost of the print server in the long run
01:59 < i_c-Y> zonet is shit, if you've got a cheaper printer, prepare for a world of shit comming your way.
01:59 < i_c-Y> http://www.marvell.com/products/embedded_processors/developer/kirkwood/sheevaplug.jsp or something
01:59 < i_c-Y> a NSLU2 used would be a good idea i think.
02:00 < Merthsoft> hmm, i like that one Michael_V linked
02:00 < i_c-Y> the NSLU2 will require a lil hacking though
02:03 < i_c-Y> its just that your printers might give you a world of shit on some random print server. i dont like epsons in particular because they pull all sorts of weird shit.
02:04 < _Digital> ink consumption is way high on epsons and they color manage even when told not to
02:04 < _Digital> I was happy to have the chance to unintentionally prove that to a pro once
02:04 < i_c-Y> their drivers od weird things too.
02:05 < _Digital> if I you want accurate colors, stay far away from Epson
02:05 < _Digital> I don't give a damn if their "#1"
02:05 < Merthsoft> _Digital: that's great
02:05 < Merthsoft> but we already have them
02:06 < _Digital> but you're not doing serious photo printing either I bet :)
02:06 < Merthsoft> my dad's a photogrpaher
02:06 < _Digital> are your printers wide format?
02:07 < Jonimus> Yeah, I mean I love my Epson and it Prints Beatuifully but it goes through ink like crazy and the color management would be nice to turn off once in a while
02:07 < Merthsoft> _Digital: one is
02:07 < _Digital> Jonimus, even if you disable it in the driver, it is never actually turned off. And this was tested on a low end epsona and their legendary R2400
02:08 < Jonimus> _Digital, you can't turn it off with mine
02:08 < _Digital> it wouldn't matter is the point
02:08 < Jonimus> nor can you turn off the try icon or the popup every time you print
02:08 < _Digital> I wish there was a program that tracked load averages...
02:09 < _Digital> in linux that is
02:09 < Merthsoft> _Digital: What do you suggest?
02:09 < i_c-Y> _Digital: nagios?
02:09 < _Digital> I've had good luck with Canon, but there are others that I hear do just as well or better depending on use.
02:10 < i_c-Y> do a watch and sample the load average periodically and concatenate it to a file?
02:11 < _Digital> kinda. I want to track it on an interval so I can see how/when a computer is being used
02:11 < Merthsoft> my dad says "Tell him to shut his fucking pie whole, if he wants to buy me a canon, I'll take it, but I have two perfectly good Epsons. I've been using Epsons for 20 years, and the colors look just fine"
02:11 < _Digital> I'll prove him wrong
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02:11 < _Digital> have him print a portrait from one file
02:11 < Merthsoft> Are you gonna buy him a new printer?
02:11 < _Digital> split it on two pages
02:12 < Jonimus> oh I see where this is going
02:12 < _Digital> no, but I'm not brand loyal. I just don't like sneaky shadow stuff in a print driver that soesn't do what it says
02:13 < _Digital> and each page is a different print job. Even with Photoshop doing color management, you will get two different tonalities
02:13 < i_c-Y> Merthsoft: you're going to want a real linux install to deal with epson bulllshit, or what might actually be better in this case is to have a windows computer do this so you can use all the features of the windows driver.
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02:14 < _Digital> the simple solution is to print one page and then cut it in half, but it doesn't change teh fact that Epson always color manages even when you tell it not to
02:14 < Merthsoft> that's fair
02:14 < Merthsoft> but he still says you should buy him a canon
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02:15 < _Digital> I only mentioned that since I have one, but as I said, it depends on the type os prints he uses
02:15 < _Digital> I've only ever done testing between epson and canon myself
02:15 < _Digital> I havent' gotten the funds to up to wide format where I'll look at HP and others
02:15 < Merthsoft> I don't like sketchy stuff like that either
02:15 < _Digital> but I'm all for accuracy and away from brand loyalty
02:16 < i_c-Y> Merthsoft: buy a cheap x86 low power box, install windows on it
02:16 < _Digital> when a 'brand' pulls crap like that, I start hating them
02:16 < i_c-Y> like the lowest power atom box you can get
02:16 < _Digital> ^
02:16 < i_c-Y> then install windows on it
02:16 < Merthsoft> I mean, he says he'll use soemthing else, he's just never seen any issues
02:16 < i_c-Y> cause epson is going to pull bullshit with the drivers
02:16 < Jonimus> _Digital, I wonder if the Cup's Drivers do that shit also?
02:16 < Merthsoft> i_c-Y: say it a few more times about how epson's drivers suck
02:17 < _Digital> pick up a zotac ion board if you want, though if it's just for printing a $80 atom is better
02:17 < Merthsoft> it hasn't been drilled into my head enough
02:17 < Jonimus> i_c-Y, my Epson works great with the Cup's PPD file
02:17 < _Digital> Jonimus, I don't know. I am thinking of making my server serve up a printer in the house... got room on the switches to do that
02:17 < i_c-Y> yeah but do you get all the features of the windows driver?
02:17 < i_c-Y> no.
02:18 < Merthsoft> i_c-Y: What are the features?
02:18 < Jonimus> i_c-Y, actually Yes I do, at least with my Stylus Photo R280
02:18 < Jonimus> well that + mtink to check the ink levels
02:18 < Merthsoft> and do you happen to have a link to the lowest of power atom boxes?
02:19 < i_c-Y> no i don't. you're going to have to look for one. a little EEEbox  is probably the easiest thing to deal with.
02:20 < i_c-Y> Jonimus: i seriously doubt you do. and if you're on a higher end epson, you'll probably miss some more features.
02:21 < Jonimus> i_c-Y, it's most likely because this is a lower end Epson, I got it for $20 from someone who didn't want it, new in box and everything
02:21 < i_c-Y> Merthsoft: open the windows printer driver, and look at all the settings that are available.
02:21 < _Digital> Merthsoft: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813121383&cm_re=atom_330-_-13-121-383-_-Product
02:21 < i_c-Y> since your dad is a photographer, im venturing theres some extra stuff in there that he uses.
02:21 < i_c-Y> for this reason, i reccomend using the windows driver, and just using windows to share the stuff.
02:22 < Merthsoft> ok
02:22 < _Digital> ^
02:22 < Jonimus> i_c-Y, last I checked though you can also have cups use the "Raw" driver and then have the windows comp dirrectly connect to that
02:22 < _Digital> anyone see the Sherlock Holmes movie yet?
02:23 < _Digital> Merthsoft: http://www.engadget.com/tag/nettop/
02:24 < i_c-Y> you can do that. its excessively messey and hacky.
02:24 < Merthsoft> shit just changed
02:24 < Merthsoft> apparently, he doesn't want me to set up an old bodx
02:25 < Merthsoft> my brother's computer is always on already, and we can just use that, apparently
02:25 < Merthsoft> so then it's just setting up windows sharing, right? and it'll be wireless?
02:25 <+Michael_V> yes
02:25 < Merthsoft> he's got XP
02:25 <+Michael_V> all you have to do is share the printers on that computer
02:25 <+Michael_V> then as long as the computer is on, any other computer on the network can print to them
02:25 <+Michael_V> \\brotherscomputer\printer1 or whatever
02:25 < _Digital> wow, crhome has beat out safari based on usage reports already
02:25 < _Digital> damn google, you rock
02:26 < Jonimus> you may want to dl the drivers for any other Windows versions ahead of time and add them to the share
02:26 < Merthsoft> right, 'cause i'm on 7 and would liek to print too
02:26 <+Michael_V> printing is so 2009
02:26 < Jonimus> well Safari sucks on any os that isn't made by Apple
02:26 <+Michael_V> you should be imprinting directly into the neurons in 2010
02:27 < Jonimus> crap I still need to find my WinTV disc so I can install the newer version of WinTV from hauppague
02:28 <+Michael_V> you can download it
02:28 <+Michael_V> the newer versions are quite improved too
02:28 < Jonimus> Michael_V, it requires you to insert your disk as proof of ownership
02:28 <+Michael_V> ah
02:28 <+Michael_V> well my dad downloaded the new version
02:28 <+Michael_V> I wasn't there
02:29 <+Michael_V> he must have done that
02:29 < Jonimus> but Windows Media Center + Media Player Classic can do most of what I used it for anyway
02:29 < i_c-Y> yep, Merthsoft 
02:29 < i_c-Y> just set it up as windows sharing. rtfm for that.
02:29 < i_c-Y> theres probably some nice gui for it 
02:29 < Merthsoft> ya
02:29 < Merthsoft> alright, well
02:29 < Merthsoft> thanks guys
02:29 < i_c-Y> you're welcome.
02:29 < Merthsoft> sorry i complicated it
02:30 < i_c-Y> is it xp pro on your bro's computer?
02:30 < Merthsoft> he doesn't know
02:30 < Merthsoft> that loser
02:30 < Merthsoft> yes
02:31 < i_c-Y> its good.
02:31 < Merthsoft> i assume that'll make it easier
02:31 < Jonimus> XP Home might complain if to many Clients connect
02:32 < Jonimus> but since ist pro you shouldn't have an issue.
02:35 < Barrett_> seen Ox40
02:35 <@efneTI86> Ox40 was last on IRC channel #tcpa 70 days, 21 hours, 55 minutes ago.
02:35 < Barrett_> he is totally using facebook... why isn't he on IRC?
02:35 < Jonimus> Barrett_, the only nets he has are through his Phone
02:35 < Barrett_> he has an android phone
02:35 < Barrett_> IRC
02:36 < Jonimus> good point, so he can actually run more than one app at a time
02:36 < Barrett_> yes indeedy
02:36 < Jonimus> so then I have no clue why he hasn't been on
02:36 < Barrett_> I would understand not using it to save battery, but he hasn't even tried it (I assume he'd come to tcpa if he tried it)
02:36 < Jonimus> Barrett_, he has
02:37 < Jonimus> seen OxPhone
02:37 <@efneTI86> I don't know who OxPhone is.
02:37 < Jonimus> seen 0xPhone
02:37 <@efneTI86> I don't know who 0xPhone is.
02:37 < Barrett_> seen OxPhone
02:37 < Jonimus> seen 0x
02:37 <@efneTI86> I don't know who OxPhone is.
02:37 <@efneTI86> I don't know who 0x is.
02:37 < Jonimus> seen Ox
02:37 <@efneTI86> I don't know who Ox is.
02:37 < Jonimus> hmm
02:37 < Barrett_> !seen OxPhone
02:37 < Jonimus> I know hes been on
02:37 < Barrett_> oh well
02:37 < Merthsoft> just talk to him on facebook
02:38 < Barrett_> do they have motherboards with both SATA and USB 3?
02:39 < i_c-Y> yes, tehre are a few P55 boards that have it
02:39 < Barrett_> 'bout time
02:39 < i_c-Y> GA-P55A-UD3 does i think.
02:39 < Barrett_> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131614
02:39 < Barrett_> (they have cheaper ones, too)
02:39 < i_c-Y> even better. 
02:40 < i_c-Y> my computer still has a PM965 or GM965, forgot which
02:40 < Barrett_> while at home for christmas break I built a computer to replace the "shared" one that is like 7 years old... it's better than mine :( 
02:40 < Barrett_> so I'm thinking about upgrading
02:40 < Jonimus> Mines a P45 chipset
02:41 < i_c-Y> PM965.
02:42 < Jonimus> Now to find out if opera still supports Win98
02:42 < Barrett_> although, $300 for a motherboard is a bit much...
02:42 <+Michael_V> I built a P45 computer
02:42 <+Michael_V> Core 2 Duo 3.16 GHz
02:42 -!- Buckeye [~Poweruser@c-24-16-240-132.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #tcpa
02:42 <+Michael_V> my mom loads ebay on it :P
02:42 <+Michael_V> which is why I went for 3.16 GHz
02:42 <+Michael_V> ebay is slow and full of bloated javascript
02:43 < Jonimus> Michael_V, I have a 3.00Ghz C2D OC'd to 3.6Ghz :)
02:43 <+Michael_V> I had heard great things about overclocking them
02:43 < Barrett_> wow, this motherboard supports both SLI and crossfire
02:43 <@Andy_J> aren't those essentially the same thing?
02:43 -!- Goplat [~goplat@76-191-156-24.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #tcpa
02:43 < Jonimus> yeah, I didn't even have to increase the voltage on it so its not running any hotter
02:44 -!- mode/#tcpa [+v Goplat] by etaonrish
02:44 < Barrett_> Andy_J, was that question to me?
02:44 < Jonimus> Andy_J, yes but untill recently NV hadn't released the specs on SLI so only NV chipset boards could do it
02:44 < i_c-Y> not quite. 
02:44 < Barrett_> same idea but I hadn't ever seen a motherboard support both of them until now
02:44 < Jonimus> or something like that
02:45 < i_c-Y> well, for the core 2 boards, nvidida was still in the game
02:45 < i_c-Y> nvidia dropped out of the game though
02:46 -!- Merthsoft [~Shaun@d-69-161-78-59.cpe.metrocast.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
02:46 < Barrett_> what the heck?  why couldn't all 6 USB ports be 3.0?  a 3.0 port is compatible with 2.0 and 1.0 devices, right?
02:46 < Barrett_> 1.1
02:46 < Barrett_> *
02:46 < i_c-Y> yeah but its not on the chipset...
02:47 < i_c-Y> its a separate chip from NEC
02:47 <@Andy_J> Barrett_: it could be prohibitively expensive
02:48 < Barrett_> same with the SATA... 2 6gbps ports and 6 3gbps ports... 
02:48 < i_c-Y> also on a separate chip probably 
02:48 <@_Auron_> LOL
02:48 < i_c-Y> which is why there are so few ports.
02:48 <@_Auron_> temp is going to drop <20F on friday
02:48 <@_Auron_> texas you're cold this winter
02:48 <@Andy_J> it's 15F here now, you want a cookie?
02:49 <@_Auron_> no, I don't have a problem. I like that :D
02:49 <+Michael_V> It's 61 right now
02:49 <+Michael_V> I'm freezing :P
02:49 <@_Auron_> 44F here now
02:50 < i_c-Y> 71 inside the houes
02:50 < i_c-Y> anyhow, Barrett_ , its going to be a few gens probably for these features to show up in the midrange consumer chipsets. maybe 1 or 2 for higher end ones 
02:51 <+Michael_V> I don't think I'll be ready for USB 3.0 for a decade
02:51 < Spengo\__> sup Michael_V 
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02:51 < Barrett_> yeah, I think I'll hold off... or probably set the money aside to buy this stuff when I actually have devices that can utilize them
02:51 -!- Merthsoft [~Shaun@d-69-161-78-59.cpe.metrocast.net] has joined #tcpa
02:51 < _Digital> Michael_V, GROW SOME FAT
02:51 <+Michael_V> you can always add a card in
02:51 < _Digital> oop, caps == accident
02:51 <+Michael_V> like on this computer
02:51 < i_c-Y> ill wait until they go into mid range chipsets.
02:52 <+Michael_V> I added USB 2.0 ports later
02:52 < Barrett_> Michael_V, yeah, I've thought about that
02:52 < _Digital> I like anything 65 or below
02:52 < Barrett_> how old is your computer?
02:52 <+Michael_V> 2002
02:52 < Barrett_> dear gosh
02:52 <+Michael_V> although its technology was released in 2001 really
02:52 <+Michael_V> well it runs just as fast as a new one
02:52 <+Michael_V> I don't load it down with crazy things :)
02:52 < Barrett_> that's longer than my department's computer cycle... and we use crap
02:52 <+Michael_V> firefox runs great...word processing is fantastic...compiling is fast
02:52 <+Michael_V> what more do I need?
02:53 < Barrett_> what kind of processor is it?
02:53 < Barrett_> P4?
02:53 < _Digital> processor and RAM?
02:53 <+Michael_V> Pentium 4 1.7 GHz
02:53 <+Michael_V> 768 MB RAM
02:53 < _Digital> yeah, a 2GHz C2D would beat teh pants off that
02:53 <+Michael_V> I only hope that whatever I eventually replace it with is as durable :)
02:53 -!- DSP_Lord [~darksidep@h182.156.16.98.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #tcpa
02:53 < _Digital> and you can easily fin 2.8+
02:53 < Barrett_> I hope you've at least replaced the hard drive
02:54 <+Michael_V> at some point in 2004 I think
02:54 <+Michael_V> the original 30 GB one died
02:54 <+Michael_V> I have a 60 GB in there now
02:54 < Barrett_> have you used a modern computer lately?
02:55 < Barrett_> I think your definition of "great" might be off...
02:55 <+Michael_V> yes
02:55 <+Michael_V> they are a little faster
02:55 <+Michael_V> but nothing that I really care about
02:55 <+Michael_V> suppose I click thunderbird right now
02:55 -!- Merthsoft [~Shaun@d-69-161-78-59.cpe.metrocast.net] has quit [Client Quit]
02:55 <+Michael_V> it's open in 3 seconds
02:55 <+Michael_V> is that not fast?
02:55 < Barrett_> well, how many times have you opened thunderbird?
02:56 <+Michael_V> what do you mean?
02:56 < Barrett_> ever
02:56 <+Michael_V> thousands
02:56 -!- Merthsoft [~Shaun@d-69-161-78-59.cpe.metrocast.net] has joined #tcpa
02:56 < Barrett_> that's hours of your life
02:56 <+Michael_V> I write snippets of code in my head while waiting :P
02:56 < Barrett_> fair enough
02:56 <+Michael_V> one day I'll compile them into a book: 501 variations on "Hello, World!"
02:57 <+Michael_V> I'm about to give up my ball mouse this week actually
02:57 < Jonimus> lol nice
02:57 <+Michael_V> the scroll wheel quit
02:57 < Barrett_> I mean, normally I'd be on your side with this type of thing... but after spending winter break at home with some 5 year old computers...
02:57 <+Michael_V> I'm going to finally go optical
02:57 < Jonimus> Michael_V, TrackBall?
02:57 <+Michael_V> even though I hate to give up the momentum and weight of a ball mouse
02:57 <+Michael_V> no, an intellimouse optical
02:57 < Jonimus> :(
02:57 <+Michael_V> although I'll have to block out that annoying red light
02:58 < Barrett_> get a laser mouse
02:58 <+Michael_V> they're not really better for me
02:58 < _Digital> Michael_V, get one of theses and you'll notice a night/day difference: http://www.runcore.com/content/products/productdetail.aspx?ProductName=RunCore%20Pro%20IV%202.5%22%20PATA%20IDE%20Solid%20State%20Drive%20SSD&ProductDescription=Compatible%20with%20many%20older%20Laptops%20and%20most%20computers%20that%20use%20a%202.5%22%20PATA%20IDE%20HDD.&ProductURL=http://www.runcorestore.com/ProductDetail.jsp?LISTID=800000A0-1249409004&Pr
02:58 < Jonimus> darn I've really got to find somewhere that still has decent Trackball mice
02:58 < Barrett_> no red light
02:58 <+Michael_V> I have a logitech M500 here that I was going to use
02:58 < _Digital> gah
02:58 < _Digital> oop
02:58 <+Michael_V> I don't really quite like the feel as much
02:58 <+Michael_V> I think I'm going to return it
02:58 < _Digital> !k _Digital way too long of a paste
02:58 -!- _Digital was kicked from #tcpa by efneTI86 [_Digital: way too long of a paste]
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02:58 < Barrett_> Michael_V, MX Revolution
02:59 <+Michael_V> _Digital: I'm sure I would...the hard drive is usually the slowest part
02:59 < _Digital> I'm listing the Runcores specifically since they use teh Indilinx Barefoot controller
03:00 < Jonimus> I just can't find a decent 5 button, right handed, track ball mouse to replace my current one
03:00 < _Digital> the power behind SSDs like the Patriot Torx and OCZ Vertex
03:01 < _Digital> i_c-Y, my breif lookup about nagios is that it's a network tool
03:01 < Jonimus> The Logitech Trackman Wheel is basically what I want but its only 3 button.
03:02 < Barrett_> what the heck?  they make LGA1156 i7's?
03:03 < i_c-Y> yes.
03:03 < Barrett_> why did intel have to make this so complicated?  which socket will last longer?
03:03 <+Michael_V> why wouldn't they?
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03:04 < efneTI92> [KermM] http://www.cemetech.net :: Leading The Way to the Future
03:04 < Barrett_> and now they're going to make a core i3?
03:04 < _Digital> where have you bee?
03:04 < Jonimus> Barrett_, both will last from my understanding, the 1156 is for lower end PC's and the 1366 is high end
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03:04 < _Digital> been&
03:04 < _Digital> I thought core i3's were announced at teh begining of December
03:05 < Barrett_> My understanding was that i7 was for higher end PCs and i5 for lower end ones.  The socket type should have been the same for both, not a combination of 2 sockets throughout both
03:05 < Barrett_> but keeping i5 to one socket and i7 to another would have been better
03:05 < i_c-Y> don't forget i9.
03:05 < _Digital> yeah, it's a bit of a pain, unlike LGA755
03:06 < i_c-Y> theres higher i7's and i9's 
03:06 < i_c-Y> then the lower i7's and i5's.
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03:10 < i_c-Y> i think i've been excessively helpful today
03:11 < BrandonW> Be careful, you don't want to hurt yourself.
03:12 -!- Netham47 [~Netham45@c-67-166-1-212.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #tcpa
03:12 < efneTI92> [Netham47] "Rock is overpowered, paper is fine." -Scissors
03:12 -!- mode/#tcpa [+v Netham47] by efneTI86
03:13 < Barrett_> When does intel plan to ship 32nm processors?
03:13 < i_c-Y> look at their roadmap.
03:14 -!- Merthsoft [~Shaun@d-69-161-78-59.cpe.metrocast.net] has joined #tcpa
03:14 < BrandonW> I'm blown away by the helpfulness.
03:15 < i_c-Y> westmere should be like now. i think the original target was last quarter, but it should be out in full force within the next 2 quarters.
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03:18 < i_c-Y> BrandonW: if you read things prior in the channel, theres even more helpfulness
03:19 < i_c-Y> I even got michael_v to move away from microsoft's API for a project and just write everything with POSIX stuff or fts.
03:20 < BrandonW> I guess that's quite an accomplishment.
03:21 < BrandonW> calc84, is there source or technical information on how TI-Boy SE works?
03:21 < BrandonW> Or maybe Game Boy documentation you looked off of, etc.?
03:21 < BrandonW> Because I'm curious about it.
03:21 < calc84> what in particular?
03:21 < BrandonW> Nothing in particular, just a general overview of it.
03:22 < BrandonW> How you use the extra RAM pages and other hardware, etc.
03:22 < BrandonW> What's necessary for emulation, and so on.
03:22 < calc84> here's some GB documentation (though some parts are inaccurate): http://marc.rawer.de/Gameboy/Docs/GBCPUman.pdf
03:23 < BrandonW> Or perhaps you want it to remain a secret.
03:23 < BrandonW> I don't know, that's why I'm asking.
03:23 -!- Buckeye [~Poweruser@c-24-16-240-132.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Leaving.]
03:24 < calc84> ask me questions, I'll gladly give answers
03:24 <@E-J> http://www.fmi.fi/weather/local.html?Keywords=&station=2811&Go.x=5&Go.y=13&param=4&map=1&place=Kuusamo
03:24 < BrandonW> How big is the typical ROM? Are you storing it all in RAM, or Flash, loading it in pieces, etc.?
03:24 < Jonimus> calc84, how did you become so knowledgeable about the Gameboy?
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03:24 < calc84> ROM sizes are powers of two, starting with 32KB and going up to 4MB or so
03:25 < BrandonW> You obviously don't support the 4MB ones, so how high up do you go?
03:25 < calc84> 1MB (for silver edition calcs)
03:25 < BrandonW> What about the 84+?
03:26 < calc84> only up to 256KB
03:26 < calc84> obviously 512KB wouldn't fit
03:26 < calc84> I'm storing it in Flash, inside the application, btw
03:27 < BrandonW> Is it full CPU emulation, like handling every instruction yourself?
03:27 < calc84> yes
03:27 < BrandonW> So memory access and stuff like that isn't a gigantic deal.
03:28 < BrandonW> Not as much as it could be.
03:28 < calc84> right
03:28 < BrandonW> Does the Game Boy address 64KB at a time like we do?
03:28 < calc84> yes
03:28 < BrandonW> Does it have some sort of paging system? Is it similar to ours?
03:28 < calc84> it is quite similar, where rom is concerned
03:29 < BrandonW> How much RAM does the Game Boy have?
03:29 < calc84> the cartridge separated into 16KB pages
03:29 < calc84> the first 16KB is mapped at $0000
03:29 < calc84> any other page can be mapped at $4000
03:29 < BrandonW> What's at $8000+?
03:29 < calc84> it has 8KB built-in ram
03:29 < calc84> $8000 has 8KB of video ram
03:30 < calc84> $a000 is where cartridge ram is mapped (if any)
03:30 < calc84> $c000 is the 8KB of work ram
03:30 < calc84> $e000 to $fdff is a mirror of $c000 to $ddff
03:30 < calc84> and it is where I place my emulation core
03:31 < calc84> because it is not supposed to be used by Gameboy software (because Nintendo said so)
03:31 <@Andy_J> and the last 256 bytes?
03:31 < BrandonW> So nothing is mapped in $8000+ except the built-in RAM?
03:31 < BrandonW> Non-changeable, I mean.
03:31 < calc84> $a000 is cartridge ram
03:31 < calc84> which is changeable
03:32 < BrandonW> By 16KB chunks only, or 8KB?
03:32 < calc84> 8KB
03:32 < calc84> $fe00 to $febf is the OAM (object attribute memory)
03:33 < calc84> $fea0 to $feff is unused
03:33 < BrandonW> It sounds like it was a very do-able emulator.
03:33 < BrandonW> Not a *whole* lot of problems.
03:33 < calc84> $ff00 to $ff7f are memory-mapped i/o ports
03:33 < calc84> and $ff80 to $ffff is 128KB of ram
03:33 < calc84> er
03:33 < calc84> 128 bytes
03:33 <@Andy_J> for the stack?
03:34 < calc84> not usuall
03:34 < calc84> y
03:34 < BrandonW> That's pretty small for a hardware stack.
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03:34 < calc84> the Gameboy has opcodes that will read/write to $ff00-$ffff faster
03:34 < calc84> and smaller
03:35 <@Andy_J> interesting
03:35 < BrandonW> Special ones, or standard ones that it handles differently?
03:35 < calc84> ld a,($ff00+nn) \ ld ($ff00+nn),a \ ld a,($ff00+c) \ ld ($ff00+c),a
03:36 < BrandonW> Are those first two actually different from what we know and love?
03:36 < calc84> oh, and $ffff is actually holds the interrupt enable bits
03:36 < calc84> and yes, they are
03:36 < calc84> they take only one byte as an argument
03:37 < BrandonW> How is sound supposed to work on it?
03:37 <@Andy_J> does it still have ix and iy?
03:37 < calc84> Andy_J: no
03:37 < calc84> nor shadow registers, i, or r
03:37 -!- Tribal [~Tribal@pa-76-2-65-215.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Excess Flood]
03:37 < calc84> BrandonW: you control it through the memory-mapped i/o
03:37 -!- Tribal [~Tribal@pa-76-2-65-215.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #tcpa
03:38 < BrandonW> Wow, so, no way of determining interrupt state?
03:38 -!- mode/#tcpa [+v Tribal] by Remius
03:38 < calc84> BrandonW: what do you mean?
03:38 < BrandonW> Like we determine if interrupts are enabled with "ld a,i"
03:38 < calc84> oh
03:38 <@Andy_J> ble bits
03:38 <@Andy_J> 22:36:40 < calc84> and yes, they are
03:38 <@Andy_J> ....
03:38 < calc84> I think that's right
03:38 <@Andy_J> runaway mouse detected
03:39 < BrandonW> How do they usually do random numbers?
03:39 < calc84> $ff04 increases 16384 times a second
03:40 < BrandonW> What is that normally?
03:40 < calc84> ?
03:40 < BrandonW> What's that address/port supposed to be used for?
03:40 < BrandonW> Instead of random numbers.
03:40 <@Andy_J> well it's part of the memory-mapped I/O so it's probably just a hardware counter
03:40 < calc84> pseudo-random numbers, I suppose
03:40 <@Andy_J> actually that could be part of the sound hardware if it's 16khz?
03:40 < BrandonW> Well I know that, I was asking what hardware needs that counter.
03:41 < calc84> none that I know of
03:41 <@Andy_J> does it have 16khz sound?
03:41 < BrandonW> Does TI-Boy SE support sound?
03:41 < calc84> BrandonW: yes
03:42 < calc84> Andy_J: I doubt it
03:42 < calc84> BrandonW: only two of the channels though
03:42 < calc84> there are four total
03:42 < BrandonW> What does that do to performance?
03:42 < BrandonW> Like is it still recognizable in most games?
03:43 < calc84> not much, since I'm using crystal timer interrupts
03:43 < calc84> and yeah, it's recognizable
03:43 < BrandonW> Did you have to fight the OS for control of those?
03:43 < calc84> doesn't sound quite as good though, because there's no volume control
03:43 < BrandonW> Or for anything?
03:43 < calc84> no, I don't use the OS at all during emulation
03:43 < calc84> that would be silly
03:44 < calc84> I'm fighting for speed as it is
03:44 < BrandonW> So does plugging/unplugging a USB cable during emulation break it?
03:44 < _Digital> i_c-Y: nagio or rrdtool? which would you suggest and why
03:44 < calc84> I think it might, yes
03:44 < calc84> but I can still exit, because I use the ON interrupt to exit
03:44 < BrandonW> The interrupt, or you read port 4?
03:45 < calc84> the interrupt
03:45 < BrandonW> Does that actually work? I'm not really sure what the calculator does when USB freezes it.
03:46 < calc84> I figured it just never gets acknowledged, so it keeps calling the interrupt each time it ends
03:46 < BrandonW> My understanding is that outputting zero to ports 57h and 5Bh will kill it completely.
03:46 < BrandonW> If you want to try that at startup or something.
03:46 < calc84> well, I don't care at the moment
03:47 < calc84> it breaks everything that uses their own interrupt routines anyway
03:47 < i_c-Y> _Digital: you might want to read a bit more about rrdtool and then think about that question on your own.
03:47 < calc84> that is, it's not uncommon among hardcore asm games
03:48 < _Digital> i_c-Y, well a wrapper for rrdtool like cacti
03:48 < BrandonW> Well...good luck on winning POTY.
03:48 < calc84> thanks :)
03:49 < calc84> oh, by the way, I'm using one of those obscure memory-mapping ports to make $a000-$bfff mappable separately from $8000-$9fff
03:49 < i_c-Y> nagios has a ton of features to play with and can do a ton of things
03:49 < i_c-Y> if you only intend on doing one little thing, may as well go with something else.
03:49 < calc84> that's one of the notable "hacks" I'm using
03:50 < i_c-Y> if you want to play with a bunch of stuff, well, nagios is your toy.
03:50 < _Digital> okay, as with how much it offers, configuration seems a bit daunting
03:50 < i_c-Y> it wont kill you to try multiple options.
03:50 < BrandonW> That's come in handy more than once, oddly enough.
03:50 < calc84> needless to say, it didn't work in Wabbitemu until I got Spencer to add that feature
03:51 < calc84> and I just realized why my plans to map things into $c000-$fdff failed!
03:51 < calc84> hahaha
03:51 < calc84> the interrupt vector table is in that area
03:52 < calc84> that explains why that never worked...
03:53 < calc84> oh, and writing the game boy emulator for the TI-Nspire helped me figure out how to emulate it the RIGHT way xD
03:53 < _Digital> it bugs that I cannot silence faac's output
03:53 < _Digital> unless I'm missing somethign obvious
03:54 < BrandonW> That came after TI-Boy SE, didn't it?
03:54 < calc84> yes
03:54 < BrandonW> It's really pretty amazing you managed to get that written.
03:54 < BrandonW> It sounds like it could've been done years ago.
03:54 < BrandonW> But no one did it.
03:54 < calc84> takes someone crazy like me I guess
03:55 < BrandonW> I have no doubt people have thought about it.
03:55 < BrandonW> But I guess they just didn't know how.
03:55 < BrandonW> Or maybe they assumed it wasn't possible.
03:55 < BrandonW> Which you wouldn't think would be a problem in this community.
03:55 < calc84> I didn't know how either :P
03:55 < BrandonW> But that's happened more than once.
03:55 < calc84> I just kind of learned as I went along
03:56 < BrandonW> If I had the first clue about Game Boy programming, I could see how viable it was.
03:56 < calc84> same for the TI-89 emulator - I knew next to nothing about the 68k calcs
03:56 < calc84> at least I didn't need to write the cpu core
03:56 < BrandonW> Had you done Game Boy programming before this?
03:56 < calc84> nope
03:57 < BrandonW> Do you know anything at all about its community, or if there is one?
03:57 < BrandonW> It seems like something interesting to do.
03:57 < BrandonW> I've wanted so badly to do _something_ with a game system.
03:57 < calc84> the most active one I could find was at http://gameboydev.org/
03:57 < calc84> but it's under maintenance at the moment
03:58 < BrandonW> I wonder if there's a really cheap interface or something you can build to test stuff on a real Game Boy.
03:58 < BrandonW> I still have mine.
03:58 < BrandonW> Do you know how different the Game Boy Color is?
03:58 < BrandonW> Programming- or hardware-wise.
03:59 < i_c-Y> it runs all the gameboy stuff.
03:59 < BrandonW> I'm aware of that.
03:59 < calc84> I do now, since I wrote the Nspire version (which supports gbc)
03:59 < calc84> it's pretty similar
03:59 < calc84> but more hardware to deal with
03:59 < calc84> like, it can switch between 4MHz and 8MHz
03:59 < BrandonW> Was there any change at all with the Game Boy Pocket? Even just a hardware revision or something?
04:00 < calc84> it has two banks of VRAM
04:00 < calc84> it has 32KB of work ram
04:01 < BrandonW> I've been dying to think of a reason why you would need to strip the calculator of everything except a very minimal page 0 environment.
04:01 < BrandonW> Maybe a Game Boy emulator could be it.
04:01 < calc84> I don't think the GBP was different
04:01 < calc84> except apparently its bootstrap puts a different value in the accumulator
04:02 < BrandonW> Since ROMs are powers of two, most games don't use the _entire_ thing, right?
04:02 < calc84> I suppose not
04:02 < calc84> well
04:02 < calc84> I do remember when debugging Link's awakening, it used the last page
04:02 < calc84> not sure about all of the ones inbetween
04:03 < BrandonW> I know it's not really worth all the effort, but I wonder if you made a very minimal OS-like emulator for the 84+, it could support 512KB ROMs.
04:03 <+Goplat> lol
04:03 <+Goplat> if you wanted a handheld device that can play Game Boy games and you don't need math... why not just get a Game Boy? :p
04:03 < calc84> actually, I remember an article on the web about somebody finding bits of source code and other things in the unused portions of Link's Awakening DX
04:04 < BrandonW> Goplat, you might have eight 84+s and can spare one for just such a purpose. Plus it looks like you're using a calculator in math class.
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04:04 < i_c-Y> they let you use calculators in math classes?
04:05 < i_c-Y> we were only allowed to use them on exams.
04:05 < BrandonW> I've wanted a reason to write an extremely minimal OS to take advantage of all the extra space.
04:05 < calc84> I use mine in math class all the time
04:05 < BrandonW> You could in my high school at least.
04:05 < calc84> though, I've heard in college they don't care anyway :P
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04:07 < efneTI92> [Randomist] CAUTION:  Exposure to this user may cause neurological damage.
04:07 <+glk> I defend the TI-89t against all enemies.
04:07 < BrandonW> Why would a Game Boy ROM use the very last page instead of pages in between?
04:07 < i_c-Y> i am an enemy of the TI-89t.
04:07 < i_c-Y> what are you going to do, glk ?
04:07 < BrandonW> Or is it just that that one game uses everything including the last page?
04:07 <+glk> I will banish you from this universe
04:08 < i_c-Y> God would never allow that.
04:08 < BrandonW> Please do that to Randomist.
04:08 < i_c-Y> hey, don't pick on Randomist 
04:08 <+glk> I will brick your calc by esp
04:08 < i_c-Y> lets see you brick matlab, esp boy
04:08 < calc84> the TI-OS uses the first and last pages :P
04:08 < calc84> I know that's a special case, but still.
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04:09 < BrandonW> Maybe they were following a "this grows upward and that grows downward, and when they meet, we're out of space in the ROM" kind of model.
04:10 < BrandonW> I guess it just depends on what that data was.
04:10  * Randomist needs an idea something to try to write in Python for learning-the-language's sake.
04:10 < BrandonW> I submit to you that if you can't think of a good reason to use the language, don't use it.
04:10 < calc84> oh yeah, one interesting bug that I had to fix is that when it tries to map in page 0 to $4000, you map page 1 instead
04:11 < calc84> I don't think it was intentional on the developer's part
04:12 < calc84> a routine is called on (I think) the last page, which clears all RAM and restarts the rom execution
04:12 < Randomist> Well, I could write my file manager in it, but the thing is, it's supposed to be *lightweight.*  :P
04:12 < BrandonW> What made you want to learn Python?
04:12 < calc84> but the location in ram that stored the page to return to (that is, page 1) got zeroed out
04:12 < i_c-Y> he hops between programming languages and operating systems every 2 weeks, remember?
04:12 < calc84> so when it returned, it tried to map page zero in
04:12 < BrandonW> Yeah, I'm just making a stupid attempt to try and understand him again. I know it's futile.
04:13 < BrandonW> How long did that take to find, calc84?
04:13 < calc84> I don't remember
04:13 < BrandonW> I hate bugs like that.
04:13 < calc84> I think it took quite a bit of debugging time
04:14 < Randomist> Originally, to write a music player that suits my needs, but I solved that by writing a frontend to MPD in POSIX shell that did what I wanted.
04:14 < calc84> stepping through on a PC gameboy emulator and on TI-Boy at the same time, iirc
04:14 < calc84> I had to do a lot of that for the TI-89 emulator, too :(
04:14 < calc84> that turned out to be a problem with flash writing
04:14 < BrandonW> In C, or assembly?
04:15 < calc84> assembly
04:15 < BrandonW> I wonder if there's a public disassembly of the 89 AMS.
04:15 < BrandonW> Or if that's just a crazy thought.
04:15 < calc84> what would be the point of that?
04:16 < BrandonW> To track down and discover things about its internal workings.
04:16 < Randomist> And piss off Texas Instruments?  :P
04:16 < calc84> oh, I'm sure there's been reverse engineering of it
04:16 < BrandonW> It would just be a convenient way to dig into core pieces of the OS.
04:16 < BrandonW> See what an entry point is doing, etc.
04:16 < BrandonW> Same reasons as for the 83+ OS.
04:16 < calc84> you could always just use TI-Emu
04:17 < BrandonW> It's harder to dig around in an emulator/debugger.
04:17 < calc84> I'd think it would be a lot easier to disassemble than the 83+ os
04:17 < calc84> no paging involved
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04:18 < BrandonW> Same with the Nspire, except it being ridiculously bigger.
04:18 < calc84> right :P
04:18 < ports> I wish TI tried to make thinner calculators.
04:18 < calc84> but where would they put all those buttons? D:
04:18 < ports> You'd think the 83+ that they started selling years ago, and it was out for all those years... that there would be some engineering advancements to make it thinner..
04:19 < ports> calc84, no.. the overall shape and dimensions can stay the same... just the thickness
04:19 < calc84> but that would cost them money
04:19 < calc84> and we know what misers they are
04:19 < NovaYoshi> They would also need to switch to different types of batteries
04:19 < BrandonW> And we know how well that turned out for the TI-80.
04:20 < calc84> haha BrandonW, your statement can be taken several ways :D
04:20 < ports> We don't... what kind of battery did the Ti use.
04:20 < calc84> "Same with the Nspire, except it being ridiculously bigger."
04:20 < BrandonW> It used CR2032s or something similar.
04:20 < BrandonW> Two of them.
04:20 < ports> Expensive
04:21 < BrandonW> The screen was also much smaller.
04:21 < ports> yeah i see that in the photo
04:21 < NovaYoshi> And even harder to find rechargible batteries of
04:21 < BrandonW> It's almost impossible to see mine.
04:21 < BrandonW> I didn't know rechargeable CR2032s existed.
04:21 < NovaYoshi> They don't?
04:21 < ports> NovaYoshi, doubt it.. theyre probably horribly expensive.
04:21 < ports> 2 rechargable D batteries are $10
04:22 < NovaYoshi> I'd happily trade the ability to use rechargible batteries for a more bulky calculator
04:22 < calc84> argh, ExtendeD is making me impatient :(
04:22 < BrandonW> Why can't you use rechargeable AAAs?
04:22 < NovaYoshi> I can!
04:22 < BrandonW> Oh, I misread that.
04:22 < ports> NovaYoshi, i quite often just use VTI over getting out my calculator... because its a PITA carrying the 89 in my bag amongst all the other things i have to carry.
04:23 < ports> i dont have a permanent office at work right now.. so i pretty much only take to work everyday what i can fit in my swiss gear shoulder bag
04:23 < i_c-Y> < BrandonW> I didn't know rechargeable CR2032s existed.
04:24 < i_c-Y> LIR2032 is a rechargable CR2032 compatible.
04:24 < NovaYoshi> Oooh
04:24 < BrandonW> Yeah, I was just reading that.
04:24 < calc84> BrandonW: do you know where the boot1 is in the TI-Nspire's memory map?
04:24 < calc84> I was guessing it started at $00000000
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04:24 < BrandonW> I have no idea, I've been staying out of the Nspire disassembly effort because of time constraints.
04:25 <+Goplat> calc84: If I had to guess, I would also say 00000000
04:25 < ports> http://www.batteryjunction.com/lir2032----.html
04:25 < ports> wow.. thats not too expensive
04:25 < NovaYoshi> My disassembly of Video Life is half done
04:25 < ports> 2 batteries for $4
04:25 < BrandonW> What is Video Life?
04:25 <+Goplat> ARM documentation says that on an exception it jumps to address 00000000 (reset), 00000004 (undefined instruction), 00000008 (SWI), etc
04:25 < calc84> Goplat: do you know if the power-down upon keypad removal is software or hardware controlled?
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04:25 <+Goplat> so there needs to be something there on power-on
04:25 < BrandonW> I just might get that for my TI-80. I keep batteries out of it because it manages to kill anything I put in there, even with it off.
04:25 <+Goplat> calc84: no
04:26 < calc84> you should try making a command to remove it on your emulator or something, and see what happens
04:27 < calc84> I'm thinking it might be software though, since a couple times when I removed it, it stayed on for a few seconds
04:27 < BrandonW> I would think it'd have to be, since it saves the 84+SE emulator state when you do that.
04:27 < ports> BrandonW, the charger for those is like $16
04:27 < BrandonW> There's an invalid instruction to trigger that, too.
04:27 < calc84> ah, right
04:27 < BrandonW> If it helps, I could find which one that is.
04:28 < ports> http://www.batteryjunction.com/--ch-unce001-2032.html - 5.75
04:28 < BrandonW> You know a lot more about disassembling the code behind those than I do.
04:28 < calc84> oh, and BrandonW 
04:28 < NovaYoshi> Oh, Video Life is an Atari 2600 game that simulates Conway's Game of Life
04:28 < calc84> from what I saw when disassembling
04:28 < NovaYoshi> I was trying to see what makes it go so fast on such a limited system
04:29 < calc84> I think the ones that crash when not run from flash
04:29 <+doc_who> hello
04:29 < calc84> actually check whether it's in the $4000 bank or not
04:29 < calc84> not whether it's in flash
04:29 < calc84> I could be horribly wrong though
04:29 < i_c-Y> < BrandonW> I just might get that for my TI-80. I keep batteries out of
04:29 < i_c-Y>                   it because it manages to kill anything I put in there, even
04:29 < i_c-Y>                   with it off.
04:29 < i_c-Y> note the much lower capacity too though.
04:29 < BrandonW> I wrote some wrapper code a long time ago that temporarily places it at $3FF0 and it runs fine from there.
04:29 < calc84> while in a ram page?
04:30 < calc84> oh
04:30 < BrandonW> i_c-Y, note also that I said TI-80. Honestly, how long does a person use a TI-80 at one time?
04:30 < calc84> $3FF0
04:30 < calc84> hmm.
04:30 < i_c-Y> BrandonW: i don't think you count as a person in that regards.
04:30 < calc84> maybe it was a less than or equal, not equal
04:30 < BrandonW> If you haven't used one...it's truly awful. I can't use it for more than 5 minutes.
04:31 <+Netham47> I'
04:31 <+Netham47> er
04:31 <+Netham47> I've used them, but it was back when a calculator did 2+2 for me.
04:32 < BrandonW> It wasn't too long ago that I actually saw one for sale on the bottom of a shelf in my local Target.
04:32 < BrandonW> I remember the first time I saw a TI-92 in a store...it was at a Wal-Mart in New York.
04:32 < calc84> how much was it?
04:32 < BrandonW> I think I might've actually drooled.
04:32 < BrandonW> The 80 was like $40 if memory serves.
04:32 < calc84> ah
04:34 < BrandonW> I'm sure it was several years ago, but it was at a time where it was extremely unusual to still see a TI-80 or TI-81 in a retail store.
04:34 < BrandonW> It was the first time I'd ever seen one.
04:34 < BrandonW> My TI-80 used to belong to Grue_. It still has his name etched in the bank.
04:35 < BrandonW> Er, written with a marker.
04:35 < BrandonW> back.*
04:36 < DSP_Lord> heh
04:37 < calc84> I wonder how much performance we can squeeze out of the TI-Nspire with 3D polygon rendering :3
04:37 < BrandonW> I can't wait until we really get a foothold into that thing.
04:38 < calc84> well, we've got a toe in the door
04:38 < BrandonW> Yeah, I mean a reliable way of storing programs oncalc and all that.
04:38 < BrandonW> As far as I know, all we have is that awful document format.
04:38 < calc84> yeah :(
04:39 < BrandonW> Hopefully we can come up with something pretty resistant to the fixes they're sure to make to these exploits.
04:39 < calc84> I was thinking it would be cool to modify the XML parser to have a tag that executes the raw code directly after it
04:39 < BrandonW> Like if we start storing them in "corrupted" documents, they start checking the validity of them and auto-delete if not, or something.
04:39 < calc84> so you can just open a document and execute
04:39 < BrandonW> That would be pretty cool.
04:40 < calc84> I sure hope the boot2 doesn't get validated on every boot though
04:40 < BrandonW> Even if not, what would that buy us? Wouldn't it validate it at some point, and when it does, we have to re-install the OS or something?
04:40 < calc84> if so, it would be pretty darn hard to make permanent changes
04:41 < calc84> well, hopefully it would only validate when installing for the first time
04:41 < BrandonW> You're thinking we somehow patch boot2 so that it "patches" the OS in some way when it loads it, to do what we want it to do?
04:41 < calc84> yeah, taht
04:41 < calc84> that*
04:41 < calc84> I don't want to have to hack it every time I want to run something
04:42 < BrandonW> It would also be nice to add in another invalid instruction that executes ARM code from within the 84+SE emulator.
04:42 < calc84> yeah
04:42 < calc84> but apparently the OS gets validated by boot2
04:42 < calc84> so we're going to have to change boot2, if anything
04:43 < BrandonW> What's preventing us right now from calling the Flash routines in boot1/boot2/the OS to make after-the-fact changes to boot2?
04:43 < BrandonW> Some sort of unlock protection?
04:43 < calc84> no idea
04:43 <+Netham47> We couldn't sign the changes?
04:43 < BrandonW> Of course not.
04:43 < BrandonW> If we could sign stuff, we could just replace the OS here and now.
04:43 <+Netham47> yea
04:43 < calc84> I'm saying that if boot1 validates it upon boot, any changes we make won't work
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04:44 < BrandonW> Yeah, I'm sort of just assuming that's not the case. :)
04:44 < BrandonW> Because we're screwed if so.
04:44 < calc84> mmkay
04:44 <+Netham47> but we wouldn't be able to write to any protected areas if they require the writes to be signed
04:44 < calc84> and let's not give TI any ideas for future boot1 revisions >_>
04:44 <+doc_who> this is all nspire stuff?
04:44 < calc84> indeed
04:45 < BrandonW> Netham47, it doesn't matter, if the chip isn't locked in some way we can write wherever we want. Whether boot1/boot2 likes it after we're done is another story.
04:45 <+Netham47> ah.
04:46 < BrandonW> Which brings up another question, is there some sort of protected mode with this processor?
04:46 < BrandonW> And if so, what is this exploit getting us to?
04:47 < calc84> well, ARM processor does support such a mode
04:47 < BrandonW> Have you seen any code that does such a mode switch?
04:47 < calc84> I haven't looked much
04:47 <+Goplat> I don't think the OS uses mode switching except when setting up stacks at start-up
04:48 < calc84> any idea if we'll be able to use our own code for ISRs?
04:48 <+Goplat> it just does everything in SVC mode
04:49 <+Goplat> calc84: sure, just write the address of your interrupt handler to A4000038
04:49 < NovaYoshi> By the way, is NSpire BASIC actually fast?
04:49 < calc84> oh cool
04:49 < calc84> LOL no
04:50 < NovaYoshi> Compared to the BASIC of the TI-83+ family, I meant
04:50 <+Goplat> (that's with the OS running - the CPU jumps to A4000018, which has a "ldr pc,[pc+0x18]" instruction)
04:50 <+doc_who> the nspire is has an arm in it?
04:50 < BrandonW> It's still a laughable thought.
04:50 < calc84> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKmh2UvniQA
04:50 <+doc_who> i thought it was z80 too
04:51 < calc84> Goplat: is that the FIQ?
04:52 <+Goplat> no - the IRQ vector is A4000018, the FIQ vector is A400001C
04:52 < BrandonW> It's just embarrassing how crappy the Nspire is.
04:52 < calc84> ah
04:52 < BrandonW> (watching the video)
04:52 < calc84> the FIQ seems like it would have so much potential
04:52 <+Goplat> btw, the Nspire OS's FIQ handler is broken: it starts with a "mrs r0,cpsr" instruction without saving the r0 register first
04:53 < calc84> bahaha
04:53 <+doc_who> it can't handle GBA games can it?
04:53 < calc84> emulating them? probably not
04:53 < calc84> we could probably make GBA-quality games on it though
04:53 <+doc_who> yea its probably not nearly fast enough
04:53 < calc84> it has a much larger resolution and faster processor
04:54 <+doc_who> is the gfx driver better than the 83? (ie is it like the 89 display)?
04:54 < calc84> it is memory-mapped, yes
04:54 <+doc_who> so it can do real greyscale
04:54 < calc84> four bits per pixel
04:54 < calc84> 16 levels of grayscale
04:55 < calc84> 320x240 resolution
04:56 < Tari> pimping
04:56 < BrandonW> Can you imagine streaming USB video off the thing?
04:56 < calc84> yes, I have imagined it
04:57 < calc84> the lcd ghosting seems to be fairly bad though :(
04:57 < calc84> I'm not sure how much that will affect our programs
04:57 < BrandonW> Yeah, it's pretty bad in the OS, at least in my experience.
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04:58 <+doc_who> ooh the screen has better res than the gba did
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04:58 < calc84> even better than the DS
04:58 < calc84> well, one screen at least
04:59 < calc84> let's just say that the resolution is as good as the gp2x :P
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05:00 < calc84> a little less than the PSP though
05:00 < Merthsoft> ¯\(°_o)/¯ dun worry its all gun b k
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05:05 < calc84> I bet we could make a function grapher that uses anti-aliasing :D
05:05 < calc84> I mean, why waste all that grayscale?
05:06 < BrandonW> I can't wait until we start doing things better than the OS.
05:06 < calc84> we could probably port some open-source CAS
05:07 < calc84> we would definitely want to port a higher-level programming language
05:07 < calc84> so all the Basic programmers have something to do
05:07 < BrandonW> lol
05:08 < calc84> seriously, though ;)
05:08 < calc84> I would probably use it from time to time for prototyping, hehe
05:10 < Merthsoft> make our own basic
05:10 < calc84> we'll definitely have to include built-in tilemaps/sprites, of course
05:10 < calc84> that could take a while...
05:11 < calc84> could be worth it though
05:11 < i_c-Y> a compiled basic would be nice. :)
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05:11 < calc84> hmm yeah
05:12 < calc84> we could try to port BBC Basic for starters, I think
05:12 < i_c-Y> maybe we should put pascal instead of basic on there. 
05:13 < calc84> PYTHON
05:13 < calc84> lawl
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05:13 < BrandonW> If you go with BBC BASIC, that could mean an actual standard language across all three major model types.
05:13 < BrandonW> If we write one for the 68k series, which I'm sure is possible.
05:13 < calc84> we didn't have the source code for the z80 version though
05:14 < BrandonW> z80 is easy to disassemble.
05:14 < calc84> well yeah
05:14 < BrandonW> If you mean we don't have Ben's source.
05:14 < BrandonW> Which is how I interpreted that.
05:14 < Merthsoft> we can get ot from ben
05:14 < calc84> no
05:14 < calc84> Ben didn't have Russel's
05:15 < calc84> just a binary or something
05:15 < calc84> he just wrote the wrappers for file I/O and graphics and such
05:15 < calc84> but anyway: http://mdfs.net/Software/BBCBasic/68000/
05:15 < DrDnar> Ben had to hack it up a lot.
05:16 < calc84> here's the info on porting the z80 version: http://mdfs.net/Software/BBCBasic/Z80/port.htm
05:23 < calc84> hmm, do you think a C compiler on the TI-Nspire would run at a reasonable speed?
05:23 < DrDnar> If it were running native?
05:23 < calc84> yeah
05:24 < DrDnar> They had C compliers when computers only had a meg of RAM and ran at 30 MHz.
05:24 < calc84> it would be cool to be able to code C on it without a computer
05:24 < DrDnar> The Nspire has the computational power to C and whole lot more.
05:24 < calc84> it has a big enough screen for code editing, too
05:25 < BrandonW> Typing would be a pain to start with.
05:25 < BrandonW> But I imagine we'll have USB keyboards soon enough.
05:25 < calc84> well, I got used to it on the 83+
05:25 < DrDnar> It's a 32-bit ARM running at more than ten times the clock of the TI-83.
05:25 < calc84> I imagine that I could get pretty fast on the TI-Nspire if I use it enough
05:26 <+Goplat> kids these days can type on their cell phones pretty fast and those don't even have a dedicated key for each letter
05:26 < BrandonW> Yeah, but C?
05:26 < calc84> I never understood texting :P
05:27 < calc84> why not C? xD
05:27 < calc84> of course, assembly would be good too, heh
05:27 < BrandonW> It's just a very input-demanding language.
05:28 < calc84> and we have possibly more keys than a standard keyboard
05:28 < calc84> I didn't count though :P
05:29 < DrDnar> I'd  the ARM on the Nspire must have at least 20 times more computational power.
05:30 <+Goplat> The Nspire has 83 keys
05:30 <+Goplat> coincidentally, the original IBM PC/XT keyboard layout also had 83
05:30 < calc84> I'd say at least 60 times the instructions per second than the TI-83+
05:30 < calc84> since generally the fastest z80 instructions are 4 clock cycles
05:31 < calc84> plus, the ARM is 32-bit and more flexible
05:31 < DrDnar> I'm glancing at the official reference for the ARM right now.
05:31 < calc84> did we ever figure out the .tns compression?
05:31 < calc84> I just found that on the hackspire page
05:32 < DrDnar> It doesn't seem to have an FPU?
05:32 < calc84> no, it doesn't
05:32 < calc84> nor a division instruction
05:32 < DrDnar> Haha, TI is still using a CPU with very little native math instructions in their calculators.
05:33 < calc84> 68k had division
05:33 < calc84> though it was still pretty slow division :P
05:33 < DrDnar> You'd figure the CPU in a calculator could do math, but no.
05:33 < calc84> apparently ARM is cheap and power-efficient though
05:34 < Jonimus> What about Brandy Basic, its Open Source and almost 100% BBC basic compatible?
05:34 < DrDnar> That'd be why TI chose it. Cheap, cheap, cheap!
05:34 < calc84> besides, do you have a suggestion of what they could have used?
05:34 < DrDnar> The Z80 is licenced royalty-free---they don't pay Zilog for the Z80s they make.\
05:35 < Jonimus> ^
05:35 < calc84> And TI develops a bunch of microprocessors anyway
05:35 < DrDnar> As I understand it, they only had to pay a one-time licensing fee.
05:35 < calc84> like the TI OMAP series
05:35 < Jonimus> Arm has to be fairly cheap to license also
05:35 < Jonimus> calc84, OMAP is ARM based
05:36 < DrDnar> Eww, their exclusive-or is the EOR instruction, not xor.
05:36 < calc84> Jonimus: I know
05:36 < Jonimus> ahh ok
05:36 < calc84> DrDnar: yeah, that took a while to get used to :P
05:36 < calc84> and several find/replaces were needed in my Gameboy emulator
05:37 <+Goplat> DrDnar: it's like the 6502
05:37 < DrDnar> The #define in C can be used to great effect---for better or for worse.
05:37 <+Goplat> also, the carry flag resulting from SUB/CMP is backwards, like the 6502
05:37 < DrDnar> You're already porting code to the Nspire!?
05:37 < calc84> yeah
05:37 < DrDnar> I gotta get me one of these.
05:37 < calc84> I've been running it on Goplat's emulator
05:37 < calc84> er
05:37 < calc84> actually, I was writing the code from scratch, not porting
05:38 < i_c-Y> you dont need to use something super fancy for a calculator. not everything needs to be done super fast either - its just a little thing in your pocket. it needs to be cheap and fairly low poewr too
05:38 < calc84> here's a screenshot: http://otbp.tifreakware.net/images/smbdeluxe.gif
05:38 < i_c-Y> where is tifreak anyway
05:39 < DrDnar> Hey, you could run the GB emulator in the Nspire's 84+  emulator in the Nspire emulator!
05:39 < DrDnar> And you could do in Bochs, too!
05:39 < BrandonW> You can do that right now!
05:39 < calc84> actually, TI-Boy doesn't run in the 84+ emulator
05:39 < BrandonW> An emulator running in an emulator running in an emulator running in an emulator...
05:40 < BrandonW> Why's that?
05:40 < calc84> invalid opcodes
05:40  * DrDnar stabs TI
05:40 < calc84> plus I doubt they emulate that obscure memory mapping port
05:40 < calc84> it would be slow too
05:40 < calc84> slower than on a real 84+ anyway
05:40 < BrandonW> It does help in some situations, like Flash writing can be near-instant.
05:41 < DrDnar> It doesn't even emulate the Flash chip!
05:41 < DrDnar> Just the existence of the memory.
05:41 < BrandonW> Precisely.
05:43 < DrDnar> Over the weekend I hacked up a mostly functional font editor in Visual Basic Express. All it's currently missing is the ability to save font files, though it can load them.
05:43 < calc84> I really can't wait to see this code running on my Nspire
05:44 < calc84> if it runs fullspeed... :D
05:44 < BrandonW> But your code is entirely dependent on replacing boot2, isn't it?
05:44 < BrandonW> Or the OS.
05:44 < BrandonW> Or something.
05:44 < calc84> not really
05:44 < DrDnar> Does any one know if the Nspire uses user mode, or if it stays in kernel all the time?
05:44 < calc84> all I have to do is change the ORD
05:44 < calc84> ORG*
05:45 < calc84> replacing boot2 was simply the only way I knew how to get it to run my own code instead of the OS
05:46 < DrDnar> You'll into issues, then, when you move that over to a real exploit.
05:46 < calc84> how so?
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05:47 < DrDnar> I'm thinking there could issues with the addresses not always being entirely predictable, but I'm not certain.
05:47 < calc84> you mean it'll have to be position-independent?
05:47 < DrDnar> I think that's usually solved with a nop side.
05:47 < calc84> a what?
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05:48 -!- mode/#tcpa [+v Genolo] by SnowCrash
05:48 < DrDnar> In memory overflow exploits, the return address to a function is set to point to an overflowed buffer, but there's never any way to know exactly where in the buffer the code will jump, so the buffer is filled with nops before the real code. 
05:49 < DrDnar> Or something like that.
05:50 < DrDnar> So when the code lands in there, the CPU runs nops until it hits the real code.
05:50 < calc84> how would you fill the buffer with nops?
05:51 < DrDnar> The same way you put the code you want to run in it: you overflow it.
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05:52 < calc84> well, position-independent code is much easier to achieve with ARM than z80
05:52 < DrDnar> Overflow exploits happen when a function doesn't check that it has enough room to add more data, and blindly overwrites what ever lays around the data.
05:52 < DrDnar> That would help a lot.
05:52 < calc84> all branches are relative
05:52 < calc84> unless you load directly into PC
05:53 < BrandonW> You might not know exactly where the code's going to go, but it's always going to be in the same place if the exploit is triggered the same way every time.
05:53 < BrandonW> So you can keep on guessing or write some code to obtain that address.
05:53 < BrandonW> Specific to that OS version, which this exploit is anyway.
05:53 < DrDnar> It's been a while since I read that book.
05:53 < BrandonW> At any rate, code could be written to take everything you just received and copy it to a standard known place, and then jump there.
05:53 < calc84> or I could make my code position-independent :P
05:54 < DrDnar> I think TI should use strcpy() more often.
05:54 < calc84> yeah, taht too
05:54 < calc84> that*
05:54 < BrandonW> I'm more concerned with things we haven't thought of yet.
05:54 < BrandonW> And I'm completely ARM-stupid, so I'm not going to speculate any more than that.
05:54 < BrandonW> But I anticipate problems.
05:54 < DrDnar> I bet they actually do have code that uses that.
05:54 < calc84> of course, since ExtendeD is "automating" it, apparently he's thinking up some system
05:55 < BrandonW> He's a smart guy, I'm sure he's thinking up some sort of standard way that'll work with new exploits.
05:55 < BrandonW> This kind of stuff is uber important at this point.
05:56 < BrandonW> The exploit he found I'm pretty sure was already fixed.
05:56 < calc84> at any rate, I'm sure there's a way to make all my code pc-relative
05:56 <@chronomex> what's new in #tcpa-land?
05:56 < BrandonW> Nspire speculation.
05:56 <@chronomex> aye
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05:58 < BrandonW> Off the top of anyone's head, how cheaply could I get a 1.5TB internal SATA hard drive?
05:59 < DrDnar> Ballpark: <$150
05:59 < BrandonW> I'm looking for a super cheap >=500GB hard drive.
05:59 < BrandonW> I was hoping 1.5TB would be the sweet spot, but maybe not.
05:59 < calc84> goodnight
05:59 < DrDnar> < 1 TB? < $100
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06:02 < BrandonW> Since it's such a pain to write to protected ports, I was thinking we come up with a standard place to write "nop \ nop \ im 1 \ di \ out (c),b \ ret" on a privileged page, or really a standard place to write the location of such code.
06:03 < BrandonW> Like 07:7FFEh.
06:03 < BrandonW> So that programs can just look there for the address of that routine and call it.
06:03 < DrDnar> Or 00:3FF0
06:03 < BrandonW> Not that anyone's actually going to follow it, but yeah...
06:03 < BrandonW> DrDnar, some OS versions have almost no space at the end of page 0.
06:03 < BrandonW> I found that out the hard way.
06:04 < BrandonW> Like 2-3 bytes free.
06:04 < DrDnar> What changes?
06:04 < BrandonW> They kept adding to the page 0 jump table, and when they finally ran out of space, that's when they moved to shifting that stuff to the BCALL jump table.
06:04 < BrandonW> The jump from 2.22 to 2.30 is the biggest exmaple of that.
06:05 < BrandonW> A ton of stuff puts temporary code in page 0, which would conflict with that.
06:05 < BrandonW> (our stuff)
06:06 < BrandonW> Which is why 2.30 added so many ridiculous BCALLs.
06:07 < DrDnar> Most ridiculous non-empty bcall?
06:07 < BrandonW> The one thing we NEED privileged pages for is to execute to protected ports, so a generic version of that routine is really all we'd ever need.
06:07 < BrandonW> I'd have to look at the list to find the most ridiculous.
06:07 < BrandonW> There's truly wacky stuff in there, like the one-routine-does-18-different-things internal ones.
06:08 < BrandonW> to write to protected ports*
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06:16 < Merthsoft> Andy_J or bsparks what was that mexica place we ate at?
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06:29 < DrDnar> Hey BrandonW, can you delete posts on the DS forum?
06:30 < DrDnar> This strikes me spam: http://www.detachedsolutions.com/forum/t/3299/
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06:42 < BrandonW> I think maybe in theory I can.
06:42 < DrDnar> You think perhaps possibly you might in theory have some hope of maybe being able to?
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06:56 < BrandonW> Yatta!
06:57 < DrDnar> Yatta?
06:57 < DrDnar> Ah, it's gone.
06:57 < BrandonW> Japanese short for "I did it!"
06:58 < DrDnar> Oh, the doubled consonant thingy always gets me.
07:01 < DrDnar> I think I know a faster to access strings in the archive. Store the offset from the start of the sector--as variables can't cross sector boundries--so the upper two bits of the address become the value added to the base page.
07:02 < BrandonW> You've been leaving out words all night.
07:02 < DrDnar> I do that every night, actually. It happens when I get sleepy.
07:02 < BrandonW> That makes sense, though.
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08:18 < BrandonW> "I call shotgun." "I call 9 millimeter."
08:18 < BrandonW> Terminator jokes...
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08:20 < efneTI92> [Randomis1] CAUTION:  Exposure to this user may cause neurological damage.
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09:06 <@nikky> bsparks: What about links2?
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12:20 < efneTI92> [leofox] All we do in hell is play DDR!
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12:54 < efneTI92> [KermM] http://www.cemetech.net :: Leading The Way to the Future
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13:20 < efneTI92> [KermM_] http://www.cemetech.net :: Leading The Way to the Future
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14:49 < efneTI92> [Genolo] Only my railgun can shoot letting my soul out~
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15:11 <+doc_who> morning
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16:04 < KermM_> it's a sad day when #cemetech is getting more traffic than #tcpa
16:04 < KermM_> even if it is a noobflood
16:07 < leofox> there's a #cemetech?
16:07 < leofox> I thought it was #leetwtf now
16:13 < i_c-Y> last night was pretty active.
16:14 <+jr19> yo
16:14 < i_c-Y> oy
16:15 <@Andy_J> active in a relevant matter, even
16:15 <+jr19> can't we be active as well
16:15 <+jr19> i'm awake at 10:15am on a sunday, that's pretty active for me
16:16 <@chronomex> its 0815 hear
16:16 <+jr19> actually this isn't really early anyway, not since about 15 months ago
16:16 <@chronomex> ealry as shit
16:20 <+jr19> what is this google nexus
16:20 <+jr19> a google iphone?
16:20 <@chronomex> looks like
16:21 <@Andy_J> that's like saying the zune is a microsoft ipod
16:22 <+jr19> but it is, isn't it
16:23 <+jr19> heh
16:23 <@chronomex> Andy_J: are you a macintard?
16:24 <+jr19> heh errors in the demo
16:25 <+jr19> fun
16:25 <+patz2009> The Nexus One?
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16:31 <@Andy_J> chronomex: I would say no but certain people here would say yes
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16:50 < ports> he's an iphony 
16:50 < ports> or is it myphonies? there was a Simpsons joke about it
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17:27 < Barrett> do they not make PCI cards with the same internal firewire connector type that comes on motherboards?
17:27 < Barrett> all I see is actual internal firewire ports
17:28 < Barrett> 'cause the motherboard I got for my parents doesn't have a 1394 slot, but the chassis does, and I just know that at some point they're going to get confused when it doesn't work
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17:39 < efneTI92> [KermEEE] http://www.cemetech.net :: Leading The Way to the Future
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18:29 -!- mode/#tcpa [+v patz2009] by etaonrish
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19:39 <+doc_who> sup
19:40 <@E-J> soup
19:40 <+patz2009> sup
19:43 -!- KermM__ [~KermM@cpe-74-66-230-83.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #tcpa
19:43 < efneTI92> [KermM__] http://www.cemetech.net :: Leading The Way to the Future
19:43 -!- KermM__ is now known as KermM
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19:44 < efneTI92> [Randomist] CAUTION:  Exposure to this user may cause neurological damage.
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19:50 <@E-J> http://www.hs.fi/kuvat/iso_webkuva/1135251872608.jpeg
19:51 <+jr19> lights
19:53 <@E-J> from last night, 7-8 km from here
19:53 -!- bluescead [~itsjustme@p57B1A454.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #tcpa
19:53 <@E-J> last night was coldest in whole winter
19:54 <@E-J> and this winter has been coldest since 2003
19:54 <@E-J> http://yle.fi/uutiset/news/2010/01/southern_finland_sees_coldest_day_this_winter_1342373.html
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20:06 -!- mode/#tcpa [+v rcfreak0] by efneTI81
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20:16 -!- mode/#tcpa [+v Goplat] by efneTI85
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21:20 -!- mode/#tcpa [+v j-b-r] by efneTI80
21:21 -!- calc84 [Mibbit@h175.50.40.69.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #tcpa
21:23 < calc84> I just successfully made my gameboy emulator position-independent :D
21:23 < calc84> so it should run wherever it gets put in the Nspire's memory
21:23 < DrDnar> So now it can be injected into any exploit as a raw binary.
21:23 < calc84> right
21:24 < calc84> I removed the ORG directive from my asm file, and it still runs just great at 0x11800000 (where boot2 normally is)
21:26 < calc84> though, it does use absolute addresses for spaces to use for the gameboy's ram
21:26 < calc84> which I stuck at the end of the 32mb
21:26 < calc84> I didn't think I needed all those empty spaces in my actual binary
21:27 <+doc_who> im playing perfect dark
21:28 < i_c-Y> i just finished watching hot fuzz
21:29 < calc84> good thing that arm assemblers implement a pseudo-instruction to load pc-relative addresses :D
21:30 < KermM> i_c-Y, excellent movie, I've seen it three or four times
21:31 < calc84> hmm, I wonder
21:31 < calc84> if I should send ExtendeD a binary to test out
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21:37 < efneTI92> [Genolo] Only my railgun can shoot letting my soul out~
21:37 -!- mode/#tcpa [+v Genolo] by SnowCrash
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22:03 < aksnowman> http://fukung.net/v/15709/ff9be49defa883f4898080e337baaecd.jpg
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22:05 -!- mode/#tcpa [+v glk] by Remius
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22:06 <+rcfreak0> lol aksnowman 
22:20 < leofox> haha
22:21 <+jr19> E-J: apparently it's not going to get above -7C until Jan. 11
22:21 <+jr19> here i mean
22:23 -!- krisk [~krisk@j239072.upc-j.chello.nl] has joined #tcpa
22:24 -!- mode/#tcpa [+v krisk] by efneTI85
22:24 <+krisk> i is very sad
22:26 < Randomist> :(
22:27 < Randomist> What happened?
22:28 <+krisk> my girl got drunk and kissed a guy
22:29 <+krisk> and no alcohol isnt an excuse she knows that
22:29 <+krisk> so everything is fucked up now
22:31 <+rcfreak0> ):
22:32 <+krisk> she doesnt even know why
22:32 <+krisk> so she has to think about that
22:32 <+jr19> judgement fail
22:32 <+krisk> heh yeah
22:32 < DrDnar> I've heard that tends to happen when one is drunk.
22:32 <+krisk> and you know how badly
22:32 <+krisk> (@jr)
22:33 <+krisk> its very fucked up though
22:33 <+jr19> yah
22:33 <+krisk> just a day before that she said i could trust her with that guy
22:33 <+krisk> and i did
22:33 < leofox> hey krisk
22:33 < leofox> that sucks man
22:33 <+krisk> let her go to his birthday
22:33 <+krisk> yeah very
22:33 <+jr19> idk i have been fairly drunk at times when in a relationship and had a chance to do stuff with another girl and could restrain myself pretty easily
22:33 <+jr19> but i'm not her, so me
22:33 <+krisk> yeah she normally can too
22:33 <+jr19> meh
22:34 <+krisk> looking back on it its crazy how much i trusted her and let her go there
22:34 <+krisk> and i have 1000 reasons to end it here and now
22:35 <+krisk> but i still cant believe this shit is happening its just so surreal
22:35 <+jr19> like less emotional strings and more free time
22:35 <+krisk> man ive had that all my live
22:36 <+jr19> its not that surreal dude, it always seems like it is at the time, but then you look back in a month and you go wtf
22:36 <+krisk> i am going wtf :P
22:36 <+jr19> well i guess it makes more sense later and you just get over it
22:36 <+krisk> i know
22:36 <+jr19> unless you're one of those people that dwells on things
22:36 <+krisk> depends
22:37 <+jr19> i dwelled on things after i broke it off with my gf who i have a kid with
22:37 <+jr19> that was a little different i guess,
22:37 -!- Weegeee [~Weegee@207-119-228-84.dyn.centurytel.net] has joined #tcpa
22:37 <+krisk> yeah this was just so crazy
22:37 <+krisk> everything was going really really well
22:37 <+jr19> but its not the end of the world so whatever, i still go do the things i love to do and if i meet a girl along the way...
22:37 <+krisk> its absolutely noones fault but hers
22:38 <+krisk> .. then it might happen all over again
22:38 <+jr19> yeah people say "once a cheater always a cheater"
22:38 <+krisk> i dont believe many people
22:38 <+jr19> lol
22:38 <+jr19> well once i have trust issues with a person, i might as well end my relationship with them
22:38 <+krisk> i can still trust her
22:38 <+krisk> but she will have to reearn it of course
22:39 <+krisk> but
22:39 <+krisk> the fucked up piece of shit thing about it is
22:39 <+jr19> yeah i've tried that before and it goes ok for a bit but doesn't work
22:39 <+krisk> its up to her if she wants to
22:39 <+krisk> honestly, from what i see, nobody's shit is working
22:40 <+jr19> maybe everyone in the world is too in touch with so many people now due to technology
22:40 <+jr19> that its fucking up all relationship stuff
22:41 <+krisk> could be
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22:41 <+krisk> i know one couple who's shit is working but theyve had bad times too
22:41 <+krisk> nothing like this but still bad
22:41 <+jr19> eh
22:41 <+jr19> if someone cheats on me, its just over
22:41 <+krisk> all my girls girls have been on?off with their bfs for soooo many times
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22:42 <+jr19> its only happened once
22:42 <+krisk> i thought that too
22:42 <+krisk> maybe it is
22:42 <+jr19> well once that i know of cuz who knows, ex's could've lied to me
22:42 <+krisk> idk ive only known for a few hours now
22:42 <+jr19> but i had no reason to suspect
22:42 <+krisk> true
22:43 <+krisk> i just hope she wakes up tomorrow and realises what she has to do
22:43 <+krisk> because im not sure how well i can hold on to spell it out to her
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22:44 -!- mode/#tcpa [+v Genolo] by Remius
22:47 <+krisk> i wish she'd tell her mom because she'd talk some sense into her for sure
22:49 <+Genolo> the temperature of my laptop is over boiling
22:50 <+krisk> nice
22:50 < DrDnar> That's talented.
22:50 <+Genolo> i should put water in a beaker on it
22:50 < Barrett> oh man, I thought this whole conversation was a bit more than her kissing another guy
22:50 <+krisk> boil some eggs
22:50 <+Genolo> it went down to 98 degrees c
22:50 < DrDnar> You cook dinner in it. 
22:50 <+Genolo> :(
22:50 <+jr19> she shouldnt have to talk to her mom to come to her senses
22:50 < DrDnar> could^
22:50 <+krisk> well she knows she has done wrong obviously
22:51 < Barrett> krisk, make sure she's the one doing any and all begging that happens
22:51 <+krisk> but her mom would tell her to go fix me
22:51 <+krisk> Barrett: exactly
22:51 < DrDnar> Genolo: Quick! Start Dolphin/a virus scan/rendering a MPEG movie.
22:51 < Barrett> don't even initiate communication.  that's her job now
22:51 <+krisk> true
22:51 <+krisk> problem is im not sure if she knows that
22:52 < Barrett> if she's that dumb she isn't worth it
22:52 <+krisk> true
22:52 <+krisk> problem is i cant understand anything about it anyway
22:53 < Barrett> don't try to understand
22:53 < Barrett> just be mad BUT also don't care
22:54 <+krisk> does that leave room for having it fixed eventually?
22:54 <+krisk> or is that just the end it now and move on approach
22:54 < Barrett> Yes.  It ensures that it'll be fixed if it's supposed to be fixed or not if it's not supposed to be fixed
22:54 <+krisk> yeah i used to think like that
22:55 <+krisk> that things that are supposed to happen will happen
22:55 <+krisk> in my experience everything is hard fucking work
22:56 < Barrett> If you approach her about this she'll just get defensive and do it again... so the only thing you can do is stand back
22:56 <+krisk> hmm she hasnt been defensive about it
22:57 < Barrett> you've talked to her? sorry I just read the start of your rant and a little towards the end
22:57 <+krisk> yeah she woke up and told me something happened and then we met up and talked about it
22:58 < Barrett> oh...
22:58 < Barrett> does she feel bad?
22:59 <+krisk> she said she woke up and thought 'what on earth have I done? what have i broken?' or something along those lines
22:59 < Barrett> do you think she truly honestly regrets it and is scared to death about how you're going to react?
23:00 <+krisk> i really dont know right now
23:00 < Barrett> the fact that she told you tells you one of two things...
23:00 < Barrett> either that she regrets it, or she doesn't really care but prefers that you hear it from her instead of someone else
23:01 <+krisk> i would never have heard it from someone else
23:01 < Barrett> so I take it you didn't tell her how you're going to react?
23:01 <+krisk> nobody we both know was present at the time i believe
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23:02 <+krisk> how im going to react? havent i already reacted by not immedeately breaking up?
23:03 <+krisk> i havent told her anything except that i want to talk soon/tomorrow
23:03 < Barrett> k
23:04 < Barrett> Well, you can give her another chance... but she has to earn back your trust.
23:04 <+krisk> and she said that if she didnt care about me enough then she wouldnt have told me and i believe she would end it somehow without telling
23:04 <+krisk> she didnt ask me for a chance to fix things though
23:05 < Barrett> (you can be giving her the chance until either she earns back your trust or screws up again)
23:06 <+krisk> yeah
23:06 <+krisk> its kind of wierd though because it seems like im not even in a position to give her a chance
23:06 < i_c-Y> i found http://fukung.net/v/21460/483efab640b4b5e706a86c65e2cdde96.gif funny for some reason.
23:06 <+krisk> its like its up to her somehow
23:06 < leofox> good night guys
23:06 <+krisk> gnight
23:06 < Barrett> i_c-Y, that was all over the internet and news a month or two ago...
23:07 -!- leofox [leofox@leofox.student.utwente.nl] has quit []
23:07 <+krisk> because she told me what happened and that she realised what she has done but still loves me etc but that she needs to think about why she has done this
23:07 < i_c-Y> are you still at BYU?
23:07 < Barrett> yep
23:07 < i_c-Y> who was the other team?
23:07 < Barrett> new mexico, I think
23:07 <+krisk> it wouldnt be such a big problem if she immedeately asked for forgiveness and how she could fix things and that she wanted to go for that
23:07 < Barrett> interesting...
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23:08 <+krisk> so what worries me the most is that she didnt do that
23:08 < i_c-Y> krisk: i sense that you are in deep turmoil
23:08 < i_c-Y> since you're asking for advice on IRC.
23:08 <+krisk> you are most keen
23:09 < i_c-Y> heres mine: You got as far as you're ever going to get, give up. you've failed.
23:09 <+krisk> hehe
23:09 < Barrett> so maybe she didn't actually kiss another guy but wanted you to be mad at her to make a breakup easier?
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23:09 < i_c-Y> you're getting advice from Barrett the moron now.
23:09 < Barrett> I'm an expert at this stuff
23:10 <+krisk> i hadnt thought about that possiblity yet
23:10 < Barrett> oh, what did you mean by "is that she didn't do that"?
23:10 < Barrett> oh, I see
23:10 < Barrett> nevermind
23:10 <+krisk> i mean she didnt ask for a chance
23:10 <+krisk> thats what worries me
23:10 < Barrett> yeah... well, girls tend to overthink things
23:10 <+krisk> maybe she doesnt believe in asking for it or something like that but still
23:11 <@E-J> jr19: so it's like florida there by weather compared to here :P
23:11 <@E-J> krisk: apparently that kiss was more than happy birthday -kiss?
23:11 < Barrett> she's probably analyzing it thinking "krisk must not be giving me what I need.  that's what it means"... when in reality it was probably "I was super drunk and a drunk guy grabbed me and kissed me"
23:12 <+krisk> she said she kissed him not the other way around
23:12 < Barrett> unless she was too drunk to remember it clearly
23:12 <+krisk> but yeah im afraid shell come to the wrong conclusion by thinking about it too much
23:12 <+krisk> like that it means that she doesnt want a relationship
23:12 <+krisk> i think she was
23:12 <+krisk> she said she drank jack daniels
23:13 <+krisk> and i know she already gets drunk after one glass of anything
23:13 < Barrett> yeah... I know nothing about alcohol... but only dating girls who don't drink has made things less complicated for me
23:14 <+krisk> she normally doesnt drink
23:14 <+krisk> im just afraid she'll conclude it means she doesnt want a relationship without remembering reasons why she does
23:16 <+krisk> or that she doesnt know how to fix it and i let go because she isnt fixing it
23:16 <+krisk> eh its just crap
23:16 <+krisk> i also think i need her to forgive herself
23:17 < Barrett> how old is she?
23:17 <+krisk> 18
23:17 <@E-J> so young
23:18 <@E-J> time when everything what happens is huge, even if it's meaningless
23:18 <+krisk> yeah
23:19 <+krisk> in any case its pretty much entirely up to her what happens next
23:19 <+krisk> im fine if we talk about it a bit and she really wants to stay with me
23:20 <+krisk> Barrett what you said about making sure she's the only one doing any begging is really hard though
23:20 < Barrett> yep, sounds like it's up to her
23:21 < Barrett> Well, remember that that was before I knew she talked to you
23:21 <+krisk> because i really want to see her and talk about it, or just see her, and i cant keep from telling her that
23:21 <+krisk> oh ok
23:22 <+krisk> she said we'd talk tomorrow but i dont want it to be on msn or anything, she probably does because she doesnt want her parents to find out
23:22 <+krisk> which they will if we break up obviously
23:23 < Barrett> couldn't she just tell them that she's going to go see you?
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23:24 < efneTI92> [Genolo] Only my railgun can shoot letting my soul out~
23:24 -!- mode/#tcpa [+v Genolo] by SnowCrash
23:33 <@E-J> http://www.moillusions.com/2010/01/video-crazy-nuts-explained.html
23:35 < i_c-Y> Barrett: i don't know how a 14 year old's parents would react to her dating a 22 year old.
23:35 < i_c-Y> i can't imagine it would be good.
23:35 < Barrett> ?
23:36 < i_c-Y>  < Barrett> couldn't she just tell them that she's going to go see you?
23:36 < Barrett> who's 14?
23:36 < Barrett> and who's 22?
23:36 < i_c-Y> facepalm.jpg
23:37 < Barrett> krisk said she's 18
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23:46 <+jr19> wait what
23:46 <+doc_who> wat
23:47 <+doc_who> krisk is only 22?
23:47 <+doc_who> i thought he was older
23:47 <@E-J> i think he is 24
23:48 <+jr19> nah i think hes only like 21-22
23:48 <+jr19> i'm pretty sure hes younger than me
23:53 < i_c-Y> i just made up those numbers approximately
23:53 < i_c-Y> he might be 24 and she might be 12
23:53 < i_c-Y> or 13
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23:54 < efneTI92> [Genolo] Only my railgun can shoot letting my soul out~
23:54 -!- mode/#tcpa [+v Genolo] by efneTI86
--- Log closed Mon Jan 04 00:00:54 2010